A conversation with Bishop Jay Behan about the Church of Confessing Anglicans in New Zealand
Tim Capill, Associate Pastor at Latimer Church, interviews Bishop Jay Behan about his faith journey, his role as bishop, and the life of the Church of Confessing Anglicans (CCA) in New Zealand.
Summary
Tim Capill interviews Bishop Jay Behan, bishop of the Church of Confessing Anglicans, Aotearoa New Zealand (CCA). Bishop Jay describes his personal journey to faith as a teenager, and explains how the CCA was formed in 2018 following a split from the historic Anglican structure in New Zealand over decisions made at General Synod regarding human sexuality — decisions that a number of clergy and churches felt moved outside faithful, historic Christian teaching. He outlines the current state of the diocese, which comprises around 20 churches, and discusses both the encouraging signs — including a healthy leadership pipeline and a recent clergy conference — and the vulnerabilities, including financial fragility, geographic isolation, and the challenge of sustaining ministry long-term. The conversation also touches on Latimer Church's new building project and how it can serve as a blessing to the wider diocese. Bishop Jay closes with prayer requests for the CCA, asking that churches remain faithful, thankful, joyful, hopeful, and prayerful, and Tim notes three CCA church plants in seven years: in Mosgiel (supported by Latimer with David and Maria Thompson as mission partners), St. Simon's in Wellington, and an upcoming plant in Nelson.
Key Takeaways
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Introduction and Bishop Jay's personal faith journey
Tim Capill: Welcome back to Latimer Life. It's great to have you tuning in. Today I'm sitting here with our bishop, Bishop Jay Behan, and I thought it would be really helpful to hear a little bit from Jay about the network that we're a part of — the Church of Confessing Anglicans. Thanks for being willing to have this conversation, Jay. Before we get into the CCA, tell us a little bit about your own story. How did you come to faith, and how did you end up as our bishop? Those are two very different things.
Bishop Jay: Hello Tim, nice to see you and to be speaking with you. As a Christian — my parents became Christians when I was seven, and so from that point on our family kind of went to church and those sorts of things. I remember growing up from seven onwards, going to church and hearing about Jesus. We moved to Auckland — I grew up in Nelson — we moved to Auckland when I was at high school, and I probably gave up on Christianity at that point, for a number of reasons. I still believed in God. It felt very clear to me that there was some kind of creator and purpose, but Jesus didn't mean much. Church definitely didn't. But then we moved to Christchurch in my last year, and I got involved at a local church again.
The two things I think that were most important were the prayers and example of my parents, who, even when I thought lots of Christians were hypocrites, they weren't — not with me. So they set a really good example. I couldn't write Christianity off because of what it meant to them. And then I went to a Christian meeting one time where someone spoke about Jesus in a way where, for the first time, I realised — I knew he died on the cross, but this was the first time I realised he died on the cross for me, and I needed him as my saviour. And I very quickly realised that if he was my saviour, I also needed to live with him as my king. So I was about 19, and I suddenly realised I need to change the way I'm living and start living for the one who'd become my saviour and king. From that point on, I was a Christian, and life changed. Very slow learning and those sorts of things.
Tim Capill: But the bishop — I don't know how the bishop thing happened. It wasn't when you were 19.
Bishop Jay: It wasn't when I was 19, no. Within the Anglican system, you have this role and responsibility called bishop. I know from experience in Anglican structures, sometimes the bishop is seen in a hierarchical way and people can want the role and responsibility for the wrong reasons. When we formed as a diocese only a few years ago, we didn't view it that way. It felt like no one wanted it. The analogy I use is that I lost musical chairs — there were people not wanting to have it, and I was the last one to find a chair. You elect a bishop, and that's how it happened.
The role of the bishop within the CCA
Tim Capill: Could you say something for those who aren't really too familiar with Anglicanism — what you see the role of the bishop as?
Bishop Jay: Yeah. Within the Anglican setup, the bishop has a role and connection with all the clergy and churches. Local churches are a very tight unit, and you do mission and ministry in your area. But if things ever go wrong within a local church, it can be very helpful to have someone from the outside that you can go to for advice, care, decisions, and all those kinds of things.
People sometimes talk about the bishop's power within a diocese. I think the bishop's power is nearly always veto — they can't force anything on churches or clergy. But if they see clergy or churches going in wrong directions, they can exercise it: let's not do this. So it's got a kind of unique responsibility of looking out for — in my mind, a minister at a local church has a role and responsibility to try and keep the church faithful, and I think the bishop has that role within the diocese with all the different churches.
Tim Capill: And it's helpful because I think I've sometimes thought of the role of the bishop as almost being a negative role in the sense that you only step in when things go wrong, and yet what I very much appreciated about your leadership is actually it's the positive role of encouraging faithfulness consistently, and then Lord willing you don't actually need to use the disciplinary side of it.
Bishop Jay: I hope so. I think if it works well — and we've all probably seen examples of it not working well — if it works well, I think it can be a beautiful thing within the life of a diocese, a network of churches. But it comes with its own risks too, and can not go well sometimes.
The formation of the Church of Confessing Anglicans
Tim Capill: There'll be a number of people listening who don't really know anything about the Church of Confessing Anglicans or how the denomination came about and formed. Could you give a brief history of the story?
Bishop Jay: Well, if I'm saying it briefly I'll overstate some things, but we were formed out of schism, out of a split. Most of us were from the historic Anglican structure in New Zealand. We'd been wrestling with a number of issues over the years, human sexuality being the presenting issue, where there were two very strong, different, contrasting positions within the church. But really, the issue at stake was: does the Bible tell us what God is like and how we're to live and behave? Or does culture, or personal preference, or opinion? That's what was going on.
We wrestled with that as a national church for quite a few years. But in 2018, there were some decisions made by what's called General Synod — which makes the rules for the national church — about what you could teach in terms of human sexuality and practice, which a number of people felt moved us outside of faithful, historic Christian teaching and behaviour. And so you're left with this decision: can we stay and try and reform things? Can you not live with it and have to do something else?
There are a number of us who, for a few reasons — and not just selfish ones, not just "I don't like this decision" — but what about the people who can't live with it? Who's going to look after them? We sadly felt, kind of broken-hearted, that we could no longer remain within a structure which had made those changes.
So we then had to work out: what do you do? Do you remain as independent churches? Do you form a new network with others who felt they couldn't stay? Do you join an existing network like the Grace Presbyterians or some of the Wesleyan Methodists? Or do you do what we ended up doing — saying, well, actually, we haven't changed in terms of our belief and practice. We'd already operated pretty well under an Anglican structure. We had relationships with Anglicans around the world, and I think it's really good to have those kinds of networks. So we formed a new Anglican structure within New Zealand, which is unusual and probably not preferable, but we'd been put in a position where you had to do something.
Tim Capill: And how many churches are in the CCA at the moment?
Bishop Jay: We started with 12 and grew to 20. We're at 19 at the moment because two of our churches in Auckland have just joined together, but we're planting another church in Nelson in January, so we'll be back at 20 churches across the country.
It's a very small grouping at one level — 20 churches — and the range of churches varies. In terms of size, which is only one metric because you can't tell the faith of a church or the strength of a church based on size, but with size and geographical isolation, I think a third of our churches are pretty vulnerable from a human level when you look around the country. Then on the other side, probably a third of our churches would be, regardless of which structure — the old historic structure or ours — some of the largest and strongest Anglican churches in the country in human terms. And then you've got a band in the middle which are more normal in terms of Anglican size and strength.
What it means to be a "confessing" Anglican church
Tim Capill: The name of our diocese is the Church of Confessing Anglicans, Aotearoa New Zealand, and we shorten it to CCA because we love an acronym. But the name says we're a confessing church. What does it actually mean to be a confessing Anglican church?
Bishop Jay: That's a really good question, because I think some people do get confused with it. Confessing, for lots of people, brings up the idea of confessing your sins before God and confessionals like Roman Catholic practice, which is totally understandable — and I'm a big fan of confessing sins before God — but that's not what it refers to here. For some people there can also be a link to World War II and the confessing church in Nazi Germany. It's not to do with that either.
Confessing is an old-fashioned word, a bit like professing. In Christian circles, it means there are certain truths that we confess to be true. A network of churches, if it's a faithful, healthy one, will always have certain principal beliefs that we say we all agree to and abide by. There are some things we can agree to disagree on, but there are certain central truths that we agree to.
One of the strange things with the Anglican Church is that some people think it has never been a confessional church — that it's only ever had common practice but not common belief. That's absolutely inaccurate and false. The Anglican Church has always been confessional. Part of the reason we chose this name was that this was some of the difference going on between the old structure and the new structure. They were saying, well, there are no beliefs that we hold in common, so we can kind of go anywhere that we want if we all agree. And we were saying, no — there are certain core Christian beliefs that the Anglican Church has always stood for and believed. You can find it in places like the 39 Articles, which are 39 statements of what Anglican churches have always believed. So we're an Anglican church that professes certain core beliefs about the Lord and mission and ministry.
Tim Capill: That's really helpful, because it reminds us of where our unity lies. It's not just close friends, but actually it's unity in the gospel.
Bishop Jay: That's right. Nor a unity just in structure, which I think was where we were going under the old one — as long as we have a similar name and kind of move together. But unity for a Christian is always in the Lord Jesus Christ. He's the one who is the truth. And so there are certain core truths that I think are immutable. You can't tinker with them.
Vision for the CCA and current encouragements
Tim Capill: Could you say something about the vision for the CCA and what your hopes and dreams are as you look at the future?
Bishop Jay: I mean, Tim, I'm not great with strategy and things, but I feel like the CCA's goal is the same as every healthy church. We want the nation won for Christ. We live in a fallen, broken world, and the one true hope is the Lord Jesus. Certainly for me as bishop, my hope is that everyone in these islands comes to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and for those of us who do, that we be becoming more and more like him.
The Anglican Church has always had a kind of evangelistic strategy for a country. It's not just about planting churches in main urban areas. The Anglican Church has always had what's called a parish system, which looks to cover the whole country. So we've got a long way to go — only 20 churches, fairly big country in terms of area — but we're wanting to see faithful gospel ministry up and down the country, giving the best opportunity for people to become Christians and grow in Christ-likeness.
Tim Capill: That's very exciting. Tell us a bit about what's happening in the life of the diocese at the moment and things that are encouraging you.
Bishop Jay: Well, we've just come off a couple of things which I always find busy and a little stressful, but very exciting. We've had what we call the Ordination Discernment Retreat. That's where we take away those younger ones coming through who are saying they'd like to see whether they should be doing full-time Christian gospel ministry as a vocation for life. That's a really important thing, because you're only as strong as a church as the next generation coming through.
Because I'm involved in a lot of New Zealand church leaders' meetings, I know that one of the biggest problems facing all the denominations at the moment is bringing through the next generation. There's a leadership pipeline problem, and I'm thankful to say we have it. I'd love to see more, but actually we seem to be going pretty well when I look at some of the others — young men and women coming through who are willing to look at taking that step to get trained and equipped to serve for a lifetime of ministry. So we've just had that, and had some really wonderful, godly, faithful men and women — it's just very exciting seeing them come through the ranks.
And we've just had our clergy conference and synod, which is a gathering of all our ordained leaders within the diocese. I find that very encouraging because you're reminded we're not alone. You can get caught up in your own local church and what you're doing. It helps you take your eye line off just your own surroundings and remember that there are great people doing wonderful ministry under God up and down the country. We're stronger together than we are independently.
We had a great time sitting under the word with Peter Adam, and then a lot of us got together for Synod, which is the business-making end of the diocese. I've been in Anglican structures long enough to know that Synod can be a tricky time — it can be a time where we forget to pray, we forget the gospel, we get into just the business side, we can be polarised and working against each other. But I just came out of our Synod going, the way we're operating, it seems to me, is that people are Jesus-focused. We may see things differently, but we're working for solutions, not just to block an opposition group. So I feel like there's lots to be thankful for and excited by moving forward. You're aware of the vulnerabilities too, and I probably focus on some of those, but there's real reason for great hope and joy and thankfulness, I think.
Tim Capill: I agree with that. I was super encouraged by last week when we were together. I think it was two things that particularly encouraged me. One was the teaching — Peter Adam just calling us back to basics, really: read your Bible, teach the Bible, and pray. You realise how easy it is to drift from that without realising it. And then the second thing was the relationships. There are people who may have slightly different ministry philosophies, but actually our unity is in Jesus, and I was very encouraged.
Vulnerabilities and challenges facing the diocese
Could you say something about some of the vulnerabilities and maybe the things that are more concerning to you within the diocese?
Bishop Jay: Yeah. Because we were born out of schism, all the churches — the 12 that started — we all began with, at one level, very little. All those churches walked away from buildings, money, historic structure, and networks. Now, I hasten to say we walked away with the Lord Jesus and the good news of the gospel, which is a pretty good start. But it means that from a human point of view, we don't have lots of resources like historic denominations and structures do.
When you're in that boat and you're geographically isolated from other churches, there are a number of our churches which — either because of size, finances, or lack of options for succession of ministry — are working right now because of the people and the situation they're in, but how do you make it sustainable for the future? How do you do a handover of leadership? There are some things there that need time, attention, prayer, thought, and consideration.
We're growing, which we're thankful for as a diocese, but growing gives the opportunity for more division as well as more unity, and that's another kind of vulnerability. We're partnering with some people at Nelson Diocese at the moment to do training, but training is an ongoing issue as to how we do that best for our people and for the leaders coming through.
And plus, we've been going seven years now. Seven years is enough to have got started, but then the realities and the hard work set in. You kind of start something new and there's something exciting about it, even though you've lost a lot. There's something that forces you together and the adrenaline's going. Seven years in, well, this is a grind now. The reality's set in a bit more. So you can lose that joy or thankfulness to the Lord. You can forget the privilege we have of serving him the way that we do. So trying to look after some of those things.
Latimer Church's new building and its significance for the diocese
Tim Capill: You mentioned buildings and having to walk away from things, and I know that you've been watching from afar as Latimer has gone through our building project and you've prayed for us — we're very thankful for that. What excites you about the new building as you look on as our bishop?
Bishop Jay: It has been from a distance, Tim, so I haven't been to the site and seen what's been going on. But I've been very interested in the Latimer buildings — I was married in the old St John's Latimer Square building. What excites me is the way Latimer has dealt with things. It's very easy in a new build to be totally consumed by it — it becomes the focus of everything: money, time, resources — and actually mission and ministry, which I think is eternally more important, can go by the wayside.
Latimer has, I think from the outside, been able to maintain both things. They've continued to be generous to mission and ministry, not just locally for them but within the diocese and further afield, while at the same time trying to keep the building project moving. They've always been mindful that the buildings will be a blessing not just for your church ministry but for the rest of us in the diocese and for gospel ministry itself within the country and abroad.
And I think one of the things of losing buildings — we were like you, Latimer. We lost our buildings in the earthquake and then walked away from the possibility of buildings and money with the disaffiliation and starting something new. That's a great reminder that buildings are not the be-all and end-all with ministry. When Jesus was planning his strategy for world evangelisation, he started with 12 people, not 12 buildings. But you also, when you lose those things, recognise what buildings can do in terms of an identity marker within a community, a base of operations for gospel ministry. They are a blessing in lots of different ways.
The thought that you guys will have something fit for purpose is just very exciting, and it gives encouragement and hope. When we all left, there was only one of our churches that had buildings — up at West Hamilton. And that building itself was an encouragement to the rest of us of what the Lord could provide and what we could aspire to and work towards. You will end up doing that now for the rest of us. And I've been told and believe that diocesan events will be able to use the buildings, and it will be a blessing in that wider sense as well. So I'm very excited and looking forward, for you and for the diocese, in terms of what those buildings will be used for for gospel purposes.
Tim Capill: You mentioned your own church, which is St. Stephen's in Shirley, and we're really pleased that St. Stephen's have been able to buy our buildings in Berwick Street and will move in after us, having done a few alterations. So it's wonderful to see churches establishing themselves in a more sustainable way as we acquire more permanent places to meet together.
Bishop Jay: That's right. I think out of what will be 20 churches, there'll be seven or eight now that own buildings in some way. In only seven years, I give thanks for that. The buildings are not cheap in New Zealand at the moment. I feel like there's lots of reasons to give thanks to the Lord for that, and Latimer will be the newest one in that way.
Guarding against complacency in a new building
Tim Capill: Are there any things you think we ought to be on our guard against — dangers for us as a church as we make this change and move into a new building?
Bishop Jay: That's a good question. Complacency. I think buildings can cause you to lose urgency in ministry. Your building sets your agenda. If the building's 80% full, you kind of go, we're doing well. If it's empty, you think we need to do more. I'd like to remind everyone — whether it's full or empty — there's a neighbourhood out there outside those buildings which is unreached by Jesus, and yet you can fool yourself that the building sets the tone for how successful you're being in ministry. No. You could fill your new buildings at Latimer 50 times over and we're still not reaching even what we want in Christchurch.
So don't get complacent with buildings. Be thankful. Thankfulness is one of those strange things where you're thankful for a very short period of time and then you take it for granted and you lose that thanks and joy. It's an incredible thing that you guys are having. Praise the Lord for his provision, for the generosity of so many people who've contributed in big and small ways. Keep that thankful heart. Keep remembering it's not just for you, but for the glory of God and for the good of others. Sometimes with new buildings, people can be a little bit precious — or greedy.
How Latimer can bless the wider diocese
Tim Capill: That's very helpful, thank you. Could you say something a little bit about how Latimer can continue to be a blessing and to help within the diocese — maybe related to the building or maybe not — but what are the ways in which we can really help strengthen the life of the diocese?
Bishop Jay: Latimer is an encouragement and an inspiration within the diocese. It's the largest of our churches, and we all know that church size at one level doesn't really matter — you can be a large church and have very thin faith and it be quite fragile, and you can be a small church and have very deep faith and it be wonderful under God. But larger churches can provide things that smaller churches can't, and one of those is encouragement, inspiration, and an example. Latimer, because of the faithful ministry — not just the size — provides that for the rest of us in lots of ways.
Large churches are also able to do some things financially that smaller churches often can't. The buildings will, I think, provide real encouragement even for diocesan gatherings — going somewhere which is our own. We've benefited from the generosity of other churches. I've loved places like some of the Seventh-day Adventist, Vineyard, and Baptist churches that have opened up their doors to help us in this period where we haven't had buildings. But to have your own — like we've had in West Hamilton with West Hamilton Community Church, and now to have Latimer for diocesan events — it's a tangible witness of the growth of the gospel within the CCA. So I think it'll be a really wonderful blessing for all the rest of the churches in the diocese, not just you guys, Tim.
Tim Capill: That's good. We've always said — and I think it was actually the same phrase that you used as we began the Church of Confessing Anglicans — "not just us, not just now." We've adopted that phrase as we've gone through the building project and always wanted and prayed that it would be something that God uses well beyond us and our generation and our church, in order to see gospel fruit around the country.
Bishop Jay: And I feel like that comes out every time I talk with people at Latimer — the strength of that "not just us, not just now." It's just so easy to make decisions and take directions which work for me right now, without that eternal perspective and partnership perspective, which I think is anti-Christian. But we're fallen people and we all fall into it. Latimer has been really clear, every time I've ever had conversations with people or been at the church when you're talking about these things, about the opposite of that. So not just us, not just now. I'm very thankful for that, and because of it, looking forward to seeing what the Lord will do in and through you and for us as the wider movement in the coming days and years.
Prayer requests for the CCA
Tim Capill: Just one last question. We'd love to be praying for the CCA, and I know it's very exciting — there have now been three CCA church plants in seven years, which is wonderful: one down in Mosgiel, which we support with David and Maria Thompson as mission partners, and also Matthias at St. Simon's in Wellington, and then soon you mentioned Mike Turner planting a church in Nelson. What are the things that we can pray for you, Jay, and for the diocese?
Bishop Jay: Thank you. You've definitely also supported St. Simon's in Wellington too, so thank you. I think that we'd keep faithful, thankful, prayerful, and joyful. I think it is hard being a Christian in New Zealand at the moment, and it's also hard for ministry purposes in different ways. And when it's hard, you can lose heart. It can be a little harder to encourage people to commit their lives to what's going on. When the culture is going in such a radically different way to what following Jesus looks like, it can become a little harder to keep being faithful. So I just pray that we keep being faithful, thankful, joyful, hopeful, and prayerful.
Tim Capill: Thank you very much. We will pray for those things. I really appreciate you joining us for this conversation. This will be our last Latimer Life conversation for a few weeks, and I don't think we'll record another one until we're in the building, which is very exciting — it's only three weeks away. We're starting with our commissioning service on the 15th of October, a Thursday evening, where we will open the building officially and pray together, thanking God for it, and then our first service there is on the 18th of October.