History and vision of Latimer Church as it prepares to move to a new building
Tim Capill and Senior Pastor James de Costobadie (Costa) discuss the history of Latimer Church and the reasons behind its new building project.
Summary
Tim Capill and Costa, Senior Pastor of Latimer Church in Christchurch, New Zealand, sit down for the first in a series of conversations called "Latimer Life Conversations," designed to help the church family navigate a significant period of change as the church prepares to move into a new building at 180 Johns Road, Northwood. Costa traces the church's history from its modern restart in 1990 under his predecessor Wally Behan, through the disruption of the 2010 Canterbury earthquakes, to the church's departure from the Anglican Church of Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia in 2018 following a General Synod vote to permit the blessing of same-sex relationships — a decision that cost the church approximately $15 million in insurance assets. The new building, nearly complete, is motivated not simply by a desire for growth but by a vision to better serve the gospel, plant new churches, and support other congregations within the Church of Confessing Anglicans. A commissioning service is planned for Thursday 15 October, with Sunday services beginning 18 October.
Looking forward, Tim describes the new site in terms of being "a family with a purpose" — with an inward dimension (more space to be together, shared meals, hospitality, all services under one roof creating a stronger sense of belonging) and an outward dimension (reaching the new Northwood neighbourhood, inviting people from across the city, and maximising the church's presence in a new community). Costa echoes this excitement, expressing anticipation at seeing what God will do through the church and building in the years ahead.
Key Takeaways
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Introduction to the Latimer Life Conversations
Tim Capill: Hello, Latimer Church family, and welcome to the first of a number of conversations that we've got planned, which we've called Latimer Life Conversations. My name is Tim Capill and I'm here with Costa, our Senior Minister. We're going to have a number of conversations in the weeks that follow to do with the things that are happening for us as a church through this time of change, as we prepare to move to our new building. There's so many things going on, so many decisions being made, and we felt like we really wanted to be able to sit down and talk together with you as our church family — to help you understand the changes that are coming, some of the opportunities that they bring, but also to think through some of the challenges that face us as well.
Some people love change; other people find change really difficult. And it's really important that as we go through these months ahead of us, we really care well for each other and communicate well with each other. That's really the purpose of these Latimer Life Conversations.
Costa, I said some people love change and others find it really difficult. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and whether or not you like change? Maybe tell us a time in your life where you've gone through change and what that was like for you?
On attitudes to change
James de Costobadie (Costa): Sure. I don't think I'm someone that necessarily volunteers for change or puts my hand up. But from time to time God brings us into a position in life where he organises the change for us. I guess most obviously, for Teresa and me, when we came out from the UK to live in New Zealand 20 years ago to do ministry here — that was a time of change. But most of the time I'm happy to keep pulling the plough in the same place and keep doing the same thing day after day. That's probably my natural comfort zone.
Tim Capill: Yeah, that's good. I'm someone who quite enjoys change, so I look forward to things being different and just like the excitement of the change. As someone who's maybe a little bit slower to change and doesn't necessarily initiate it yourself, what are the things you try to remind yourself of when change comes, like it or not?
James de Costobadie (Costa): Well, change is a good thing. It can force us — I think that's one of the things I tell myself — change forces us to explore some of our assumptions, or explore new ways, better ways of doing things that we wouldn't, if you're someone like me, naturally volunteer for. So sometimes enforced change is a good thing for us.
But at the same time as appreciating change, even if I'm not volunteering for it, it's always helped me to think of the things that aren't changing. And they actually tend to be the bigger things in life. Obviously, first of all, God himself doesn't change. His plans don't change, his commitments, his love for his people — where he's with us, wherever we are — that never changes. And then often on the ground there are things that actually don't change even while some other things are so noticeable. One of the things we've found in recent history at Latimer is we've gone from different places — and we'll talk about that in a second — but when you turn up at a new place or there's a new building that we've used, it's the same faces that we were with previously. So there's a comfort there, even while there are some things that change.
James de Costobadie (Costa): Yeah. And for yourself, Tim — you've raised it in terms of work — someone that does love change. I know that in your work you get bored if there's not a change each week or day or something. What do you think is important for you in terms of being mindful of others, as someone of your disposition?
Well, I think there's always a danger that you change the wrong things, and it's helpful, as you've just said, to remember the things that should definitely not change and make sure you don't change them. I think the other thing is it's easy to just fail to love people who maybe do find change harder, and to think that because you like change, that's a better position to have — which is just nonsense. God has made us very different and it's a wonderful thing. And so learning to listen to other people, learning to walk with other people through those changes — I'm super thankful that there are people around who slow things down and really make one think carefully about why you're actually making changes and whether or not they are good changes to make. Changing things for change's sake is not always a good thing, but when there are good reasons for it, it's great to be clear on those reasons, as I think we are with this new building project.
The history of Latimer Church from 1990 to the earthquakes
Tim Capill: Excellent. Let's have a little bit of a conversation about how this has come about. You've been the Senior Minister of Latimer Church since 2011. Do you want to take us right back to that time and some of the changes that have happened since then? What was Latimer like at that point? Just talk us through some of the history.
Sure. I thought you were going to ask me to take us back to 1865 when the church was first founded, which I struggle to remember from those early days. But I think the history of a church is really important — like the history of anything — because it helps set the DNA, helps explain why you are the way you are today. We're all a product of what's come before us. And there are some really important parts of Latimer which we might take for granted or gloss over, but which have become embedded in who we are as a church. It's not so you can't evolve, but there are some constants there that have been important values to us as a church for a long time, and certainly before I came here.
In its modern incarnation, I guess Latimer had a definite restart in 1990 when my predecessor Wally Behan was appointed the vicar here. And when I think back over the ministry he had and the ways that God used him, it was really 20 years of growth through stability. He was absolutely committed to a few things — not doing everything, but a few things. First of all, preaching ministry was big. He was very gifted in that, put a huge amount of time into it, and Latimer was known as the preaching church. The church grew partly because of that. Another thing that was important to him was the raising up of a new generation of ministers. While he could see the need through the country — he'd lived in different parts of New Zealand and saw the need outside of Latimer — he prayed that God would raise up workers for the harvest field, which he did through that ministry.
So there were things there that became embedded as part of what matters to us as a church, and they remain important today. Then over probably the second half of Wally's ministry, the sending out of people to help other churches, to start other churches, or to revitalise other churches became a thing. That was why Teresa and I came over here from the UK in the first place — to help revitalise what was then called St Saviour's in 2005. About 50 people were sent out from St John's Latimer Square to help in that revitalisation. A little bit later on there was a group that left in 2008 to begin Campus Church, what's now Cornerstone Church. A little bit later on, some people left and were sent to begin what's now Rolleston Baptist Church. So St John's Latimer Square had a ministry that was bigger than itself, and that has become an important part of who we are as a church.
Tim Capill: I remember joining the church under Wally's ministry. In many ways, I'm a small part of the fruit from that. I remember being so thankful for sitting under good Bible teaching for most of my childhood. I joined Latimer in 1992, and then being trained under his ministry and alongside the team there. And that was when we had the old stone building where the transitional cathedral is in Latimer Square — hence the name Latimer Church. That was the building that my wife and I got married in.
And yet you just said you were brought over to New Zealand to help lead Trinity — I think it was 2005 — and you were there for a number of years. You moved in 2011, and you described Wally's ministry as being growth under stability. But I think perhaps your ministry has been quite different in the sense of the number of changes. How did that start? What were the first things that changed?
The earthquakes and the period of instability
James de Costobadie (Costa): Yes, I'm pleased to have been able to bring instability to the church. The church had grown under Wally significantly. I think it was about 2003 that the morning service outgrew the stone building on Latimer Square, and the morning service relocated to St Margaret's College and to the chapel there. So there'd already been some changes in that regard.
But 24th of September 2010, everything changed as the church knew it, when the old stone building came down in that first big earthquake. And that really forced the church into a period of change. I think for those who were there back in those days might remember meeting in a tent for a while. By the time we came in 2011, the church had found Monohoe High School as a location to meet in. The evening service was now meeting down in St Saviour's for a time, and then moved to what was then CPIT, now Ara, for a time. So it began a period of meeting in different locations. And I remember a time in 2012 or 2013 when I counted up that we were renting seven different buildings.
It came with, I think, positive and negative. The positive was you're forced to trust what's most important to you. You're forced to trust God, and you have this wonderful, perhaps renewed understanding that God really does provide for his people. And there were a number of times when we weren't quite sure how we were going to be able to do this or that, but just in the nick of time God provided a venue. It was a wonderful time of trusting in him, and I pray it's an attitude that we would never lose.
At the same time, having those different venues proved to be a challenge. One of the challenges was that you become relationally disconnected from each other. Everyone knows kind of where they need to go for a particular ministry at a particular time, but they don't mix with other people, and you lose those really important relational connections within the church family. So I think that was an interesting time of flux and change which taught us some good lessons, and also probably sowed the seeds of where we are today, because it showed us the shortfall when you don't have a permanent building that's suitable and fit for purpose.
And that led to then Berwick Street becoming available, which is a mini story all of itself of God's goodness. As I remember it, someone sent me an email on a Monday, and we came the next morning on a Tuesday and decided to put in an offer the same day. It was amazing how God brought that into our orbit and provided this for us, which in many ways has punched its weight. I was really glad — I think it was Brad Mitchell at the AGM this year — who reminded us of how kind God has been to us in providing Berwick Street at just the right time for us.
So really those years introduced a period of instability, as I guess it did for much of the city. But for us as a church, we learned some important lessons and were thrown back on what was most important. Pun intended — it shook things up.
Tim Capill: It certainly did. And we've moved around lots, as you've said. I think another perhaps downside to that has been a loss of visibility within the city. Latimer used to be very prominent in the city centre with the building and had signage up and things like that. We haven't had that for a long time, except for in a small way here at Berwick Street.
There was another big change that happened for us as a church in 2018. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that and the impact that it's had on us as a church, but specifically in relation to buildings?
Leaving the Anglican Church in 2018
James de Costobadie (Costa): Sure. This related to our position within the diocese and within the Anglican Church in New Zealand. And for those of us who've been part of the Anglican Church — as I was back in England, in the Church of England — we're used to working within a mixed denomination where people, as long as any of us have been around, there have always been ministers of different views, and some crazy things that have happened on the ground, and the occasional crazy bishop has done crazy things.
But what began to change in the years leading up to 2018 was that General Synod began discussing legislative changes. And that's a very different piece, because it means that when the legislation changes, it becomes the official position of the Anglican Church — which is very different to just what an individual may choose to do on the ground. And that process, which one could see coming — General Synod met every two years on the even-numbered years, 2012, 2014, 2016 — it was all kind of signposted through discussions. And then finally in 2018 at General Synod, the Synod took a decision to permit the blessing of same-sex relationships.
For some people that wasn't a huge deal, because no one was being compelled to bless same-sex relationships, and the Synod was quite careful to point out that the doctrine of marriage wasn't changing in their view. But for us and a number of people like us, we saw this as the watershed moment, because it was the first time in the Anglican Church's history within Aotearoa New Zealand that the church had decided at an official legislative level to bless what God condemns within Scripture. And so that was a tipping point for us. None of us wanted to leave — we weren't hankering for that or any of that. It came with a sadness, a sadness that the Synod should want to do that. But the vote was passed — heavily passed, I think over 90% in favour — and there's a sense in which at that point it's relatively easy to say that we don't want it to be like this, but this is clearly the mind of the Synod, and this is the direction they want to travel.
And so we took the decision — we had a church vote — and on that basis took the decision to leave the Anglican Church of Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia, along with a number of other people and a few other congregations. And that put us outside of any official structure. As I say, it was a decision we didn't want to make. It came with sadness. But at the same time, it was made for good reasons. It was a gospel reason. It was a gospel stand. It was because we knew, and still believe now, that the legislative changes undercut the gospel of Jesus, because it's really saying that Jesus does not have the right to rule his church through his word. And that for us was a breaking point.
So I don't think any of us have ever regretted that. We don't look back with any hatred or bitterness or anything, but we've never regretted the decision that was made, even though it came at a considerable cost — which is of relevance to where we are now as a church, because it meant that we had to leave behind the assets that we had as a church. And those assets were somewhere around $15 million worth — the insurance assets that belonged to St John's Latimer Square — and we said goodbye to those as we stepped out in faith.
Tim Capill: Yeah, so that's hugely significant. A kind of simple but significant implication — simple in the sense that we just lost the property that we'd owned, because it remained under the ownership of the Anglican Diocese in Christchurch.
So if I can summarise the kind of history: the change in buildings has come partly through growth, and so we outgrew the old stone building and had to meet in different venues. The second big thing was the earthquakes that destroyed the building we once used. And the third thing is this splitting within the Anglican denomination that meant we walked away from the asset.
And then am I right in thinking it was 2020 that as a church we made a decision to pursue a building project? If I can ask you — what motivated that? Why build a building? It's a lot of money that we've put into this, and excitingly it's nearly over and we're about to move in. But what's been the key thing that motivated the need for a building?
The decision to build and the vision behind it
Costa: Sure. I think my memory is that it was 2018 when we had our first set of congregation meetings in Berwick Street where people threw out different suggestions, and we looked at a number of different possibilities. For example, we could have split into three as a church, we could have moved to different parts of the city — that kind of thing. But when we thought about it and prayed about it over a period of time, it seemed to us that there was benefit in staying together as a church and trying to grow under God, which demanded then some bigger facilities.
And really what lay behind that was partly a context thing. The CCA — Church of Confessing Anglicans — which came together in 2019, had a number of smaller churches. There's nothing better about a bigger church, but they each have advantages. And we could see, of Latimer, the use it would be of being able to serve other churches actually within the city. There are a number of small churches around, and we could see the benefit of having one or two larger churches, if God would bring that about. And so that was why we headed down that route towards having a long-term, fit-for-purpose building that would help us to be a larger church if God brought that growth about. So that was kind of what led to the genesis of the building project.
So the main motivation is really just to keep doing what St John's Latimer Square and now Latimer Church has always done — which is wanting to continue this ministry of preaching and teaching the Scriptures in such a way that we would see lost people saved and we would keep growing, adding to the number those being saved.
Tim Capill: I remember when I first joined St John's Latimer Square, it was a congregation of about 60 people. And it's just extraordinary how God has grown this church. And I hope and pray that that will continue.
Costa: Yeah, sure. And I'll just say something on that, because it's not about just the sort of us growing endlessly as a church. For example, we realised it would actually help us plant other churches if we had a building where we could grow to a certain size. It's very difficult at Berwick Street at the moment to grow to a size where we can plant new churches. So it actually helps — it's not just about us growing, but being able to build a springboard and start new congregations or churches.
Another benefit, if I can say, is that it helps us serve other churches. For example, in the CCA, because we're able to employ some more specialist people. So for example, we're greatly blessed to have Simon Johnson as our youth pastor. With the experience Simon has and the giftedness Simon has, it means that he's been able to be a great help and resource within the diocese — for example, leading the Risen youth work there and being a blessing to other churches. We've been able to give some money away to support new churches within the diocese. So there are things that we're able to do that we wouldn't have been able to do here.
And that's quite apart from just the benefit of enabling more people to hear the gospel. There have been some wonderful things that Berwick Street has provided, but there have also been one or two horror moments — when I've stood at the front of Berwick Street and I can see people arrive at the back and then leave again because there simply is no room. And if you want to keep reaching people for the gospel, that's obviously not a sustainable place to be.
So there were good reasons about wanting to have a bigger building that are more than just us wanting to, quote unquote, be a bigger church. It's not about us endlessly growing, but it is about being able to serve the city better, being able to serve the other churches better, and in the end being able to serve the gospel better.
Tim Capill: I remember one of the phrases that was thrown around a lot when we left the diocese actually was "not just us and not just now," and then we've used that phrase a lot throughout this building project. We're not just thinking about us growing — like you're suggesting — thinking about the city and how we can bless other churches.
The new building: details and plans
Lots of people will know what the plan is, but it's good to recap. The building project is out near the Groynes, 180 Johns Road in Northwood. It's nearly completed, and Lord willing, we plan to start there in October. Just run through what the changes are and the details of what's happening.
Costa: Yes, we're going to move in October. We thought really carefully about the services that we're going to run there — this wasn't just a case of taking what we've had now, but we really came at it with a blank sheet. I think in a future podcast we're going to explain a bit about why we landed where we did with the services. So we're going to start with a nine o'clock and eleven o'clock and a six o'clock service.
The first commissioning service we're going to have on the Thursday the 15th of October — or at least that's the plan, if we don't have any further delays from the builders. And I hope that's a time of real thanksgiving to God and celebration, partly for God bringing us this far. We've had so many years — 15 years of sort of instability really, of challenges and changes — and God's brought us through that. There have been a number of aspects of this building project where God has clearly moved the pieces and brought them together. If any one of those hadn't been there, from a human point of view, it might have been difficult to see how the project actually would have been completed.
It's been astonishing what God has brought about. The generous giving from within Latimer — about half the money has come from within. The extraordinary giving from outside of Latimer, from people who will probably never visit this church, but who themselves had a vision for the gospel through the church and have given about half the money. So there's every reason to give thanks looking backwards, and to dedicate ourselves and the gospel in the building looking forwards. So I hope it's a really encouraging time on that Thursday evening. And then Sunday services begin in earnest on the 18th of October, God willing.
Thanksgiving and looking forward
Tim Capill: It would be good to wrap things up in a moment, but keen to just finish on thinking about what we can thank God for as we look back over the history you've outlined, and then to just hear briefly what you're most looking forward to. Do you want to start with things you're really thankful for as you look back over the history — things that as a church family we really ought to be praising God for at the moment?
Costa: Looking back is really important as Christians. So many times in the Old Testament — remember, remember, remember, don't forget, don't forget, don't forget — and in the New Testament as well, remind the people this, remind the people that, let's remember together. So we shouldn't move on too quickly. And I think it'd be really exciting when people get to the new building — I think people will love to see it — but we should never forget the past and what God has done for us.
His provision for us, first of all — in every stage of the last 15 years and long before that as well, God has provided exactly what we needed, and often that's more than what we needed, at just the right time. He's given us unity, which is very precious in a church. We all have different preferences, different personalities, different inclinations, but God has given us a wonderful unity. And that's really been built on the foundation of the word and on the gospel itself. So that is incredibly precious to us as a church, and important for us to bear in mind at the moment as we go through some more changes in order to get established in the new building.
But I'm very thankful for the unity that he's given to us. And maybe most of all, in some ways, the constant, loving, faithful service of people within Latimer. From a human perspective, a church is built not on the staff so much as the long-term faithful service of people here. There will always be some people that come and some that go for different reasons, but those who stay over a longer period and serve over a longer period, and keep putting one foot in front of the other and praying for the church and loving each other day on day and week on week and month on month and year on year — that's how a church grows and is built. So I'm super thankful for many of those people, and some great role models for me within church life as well.
Tim Capill: Yeah. What about yourself, Tim — you've been here — what are you thankful for?
Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything you've said. God's provision is extraordinary, and not just for this new building, which really is phenomenal, but even as I look back over the years, the way God's provided for the church. You've already mentioned the different homes we've had — different venues — God's provided. Particularly if I just think about the evening service, which bumped from venue to venue for a long time. I think the only change we initiated for venues for the evening was when we moved from St Saviour's Church to Ara. And then every other change, actually, it's been the fact that we've been kicked out of the building — told we can't meet there anymore — and within a month of that news, God has then provided another venue. So we went from Ara to the Piano. And just as we were outgrowing the Piano, we were told we had to leave, and so it forced a change, and God provided Majestic. And now Majestic's starting to feel pretty full and we're starting to think, well, what do we do? And God's providing this venue. So I think God's faithfulness to us — not just in the gospel, which is the most important faithfulness, but to kind of just providing the things we need as a church — has been remarkable, and we should thank God for that.
Costa: Looking forward, what are you most excited by? We land there in a few months' time — what are you most excited by?
I'm excited by the opportunities that Rosebank will give us. The new site will have — probably in two directions. We used the phrase earlier in the year at the Unite service — I spoke on us being a family with a purpose — and that speaks to us having two directions at once, and both are important.
Being a family — I love the thought that at the new site, with more space, we can be together. We can spend more time together. It's an appealing place to be together. We'll be able to use all the services in the same venue so that people get a real feel of being part of the same church. That excites me. And the things that we'll be able to do in terms of sharing food together at different times, and having more outside space — all of that is appealing. So the relationships within a family, the loving relationships.
And then in the other direction — a family with a purpose. The purpose is reaching out, having space to be able to invite people in, going into a new neighbourhood. We've not really been able to probably maximise our being a community in the St Albans area, and maybe we've had services in slightly different places and that sort of thing. But when we move to the new site, being able to reach out to the local area and invite people in from across the city — I'm sure there'll be a lot of interest — and the space there to be able to invite friends in. We can show hospitality to perhaps a better level, to be warm and welcoming, than we've been able to do for a while. So to be able to have one eye looking out and one eye looking in at the same time — I'm excited on both fronts.
Tim Capill: Yeah. Yourself?
Costa: Yeah, I think I'm excited just to see what God does and how he uses us as a church family and this building. There's so many things we don't know. And as I look back over the history that we've outlined, I think, gosh, God has just done an amazing thing through this church — and not really because of anything that we've decided. God's just added the right people at the right time. He's grown us in our love for Jesus and our love for each other. So I think to go — now that God has provided this building for us in an extraordinary way — what will he do over the next year, 10 years? I've no idea, but I'm really excited just to see what that looks like, and the privilege of us going along for the ride. So it's an exciting time.
Tim Capill: We started the conversation by talking about how change can be hard for some and others really enjoy it. But we're really keen to make sure we care for each other through this time, which is partly the purpose of these conversations. For those listening, we would love to hear from you. If you have any particular concerns or questions, please do reach out to Costa, myself, or any of the staff or members of Vestry, and we would be really happy to speak with you.
Costa's mentioned we've got a few other conversations planned, and we're going to address some of the questions that keep coming up for people. One of those is perhaps a concern that becoming a big church does bring particular challenges. So we're going to talk about this idea of a big church — what does that mean, and how do we make sure we don't lose the things that are really important to us as a church? And also why we've decided on the different congregations we have decided. So we've got some more conversations coming, but thanks for listening to this one. We'll talk again soon. Thanks, Costa.
Costa: Thank you.