Steven Bartlett interviews Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy about the war, its origins, and the path to peace
Steven Bartlett interviews Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for The Diary of a CEO.
Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy joins The Diary of a CEO to discuss his early life and career, the origins of the war with Russia, the defence of Kyiv, the atrocities at Bucha, and the current state of peace negotiations.
Zelenskyy opens by describing his background: born in Kryvyi Rih in Soviet-era Ukraine to an academic family, he pursued comedy and scriptwriting from his teens, won Ukraine's Dancing with the Stars at 28, voiced Paddington Bear in Ukrainian, and starred in the satirical TV series Servant of the People — in which he played a schoolteacher who accidentally becomes president — before founding a real political party of the same name and ultimately running for and winning the presidency.
Zelenskyy describes the personal toll of nearly five years of war — the sleepless nights, the grief of presenting posthumous medals to bereaved parents, and his separation from his family. He argues that the war began in 2014 with the occupation of Crimea, that Putin's core ambition is to restore the Soviet empire, and that Ukraine's failure to resist the Crimea annexation emboldened the full-scale invasion of 2022. Most significantly, Zelenskyy pushes back directly against President Trump's claims about diesel prices and Ukraine's energy strikes, calling them "completely untrue," and argues that a ceasefire — even holding current lines — already represents an enormous compromise given the documented atrocities committed against Ukrainian civilians.
Key Takeaways
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Opening — How Zelenskyy Is Coping
Steven Bartlett: President Zelenskyy, sometimes the question I'm about to ask you, people answer flippantly when asked, but I really want you to answer it in the fullest, most honest context you possibly can. How are you doing?
President Zelenskyy: Well, it's hard. Hard, because it's like I'm surviving along with my country and with the people. It's really a question of will tomorrow come or not, and the answer to that is yes, it will. You can't answer it any other way, because I am — that means my family, my relatives, my country. I'm an inseparable part of it. So how do I feel? Hard, but with an understanding of the difficult reality, and with optimism, because I still believe good wins. I believe in that truly.
Steven Bartlett: Is it a bit of a roller coaster on a human level for you? Are there days where there's more hope and days where there's less hope?
President Zelenskyy: You can't live without hope. I understand that sometimes inside you can be shattered, especially during wartime, especially for families who lose someone close — a child, God forbid, or a wife, a husband, a mother. That's just an internal breakdown. It's very hard, and it's much harder for them. I believe just so much harder than it is for me, with all these challenges.
Steven Bartlett: The weight of all of this sits often on your shoulders. And when someone does lose a child or a loved one, or a wife or a sister or a daughter — I've seen from some of these photos I have here of you — this photo in particular stands out to me.
President Zelenskyy: Oh, that's a terrible story. Just a terrible story. That was when a missile hit a playground. The missile's speed was such that the siren didn't help at all. It was a matter of seconds, and the missile struck and children were killed — mostly children, and some adults right there. A couple — I remember they were just out walking, passing by, and were killed. Parents, you know, on that side there are homes too, and some of them saw through the window. Do you understand what it's like to see through a window one of your children just torn apart? And toys — during such a tragedy, it's a tradition to bring flowers for adults and toys for children. I went there. It's pain. I'll say it again: my pain can't even — it's not even 10% of the parents' pain. It's terrifying. Just terrifying. A missile that cut short the life of a child who had seen nothing yet.
And there are children — a lot of them among the fallen as well — who never lived in peace. We lived in a different time. We understand what it's like to live when there are no sirens, no shelling. But there are kids who every night go down to the bomb shelter when the alarm goes off, and the alarm goes off every night, then they come back up, and some of them have died. Just imagine: there are children who never knew what peace was. That's horrifying.
The Human Toll on Zelenskyy
Steven Bartlett: You said at the start of this invasion that you weren't sleeping. You said early on that you hadn't earned the right to sleep. I'm really curious about the human toll that all of this has taken on you over the last four or five years, because it never stops, it never ends. You are a human being just like all the rest of us. You have a family, you have kids, but you have the burden of this horrific situation taking place in your country all the time. What is the human burden there? And are you sleeping?
President Zelenskyy: I'll be honest — I don't sleep. I'm a responsible person. I have different traits, good ones and not so good ones, like every person. Nobody's perfect. Every night I speak with our air defence operators, with our guys who run the air defence. Every night we talk. Thanks to modern technology, it's very easy. We text back and forth about what's needed right now — let's pull some over from another region. So it's an active discussion, which obviously doesn't let you sleep. Getting eight hours of sleep is something totally new to me during these almost five years of war. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining at all. That's how I live.
The strongest emotion — I once answered this honestly. There's a moment when I present awards, and there's this moment when I personally award the Hero of Ukraine. It's the highest honour. When I present this award to parents who lost a child — a boy or a girl, soldiers — that feeling, well, how do I put it? I cease to exist in that moment. It's not pain. It's something terrible. I look at these people, at their eyes, at what they say. Many of them say something, and there are people who just ask for a hug. Imagine: you give an award to a father whose very strong hand you can feel — he's a strong man — and he just quietly says to you, "Can we hug?" They're gone. Gone as people, for a time. Then strong people try to survive. These moments — on the one hand, I respect them, I do it. But on the other hand, it's hard to bear. I understand them. It's a huge, terrifying pain that I wouldn't wish on anyone. What these parents feel having lost a child, a soldier — these parents didn't lose a child on a playground. They lost a soldier. They knew that could happen. But knowing and losing are completely different things.
Steven Bartlett: I can see the tears in your eyes as you describe this.
President Zelenskyy: I'm a human being. I'm not ashamed to be who I am. I'm not the strongest man in the world. I try to set an example, but I'm definitely not a perfect person.
Steven Bartlett: Is there anything that you do to take care of yourself? What is it that keeps you strong?
President Zelenskyy: My kids. I just — I have to be an example. I told myself, maybe I don't have to, but that's what I told myself. I have to set an example for my kids. Be strong. Be as brave as possible. But don't hide the pain. If you have it, you shouldn't say, "I don't feel anything," because human beings by nature are alive, and that's their weakness, but it's also where a person's strength lies. That really is where our strength is. My kids keep me grounded very much. I want to set an example. I want them to be proud of me.
Zelenskyy's Background and Early Life
Steven Bartlett: There's one big outstanding question, which is: who is President Zelenskyy? I've been through hundreds of photos and stories from your childhood. I've got some wonderful photos here of your earliest days. And this is a beautiful one of your wonderful mother as well.
President Zelenskyy: That's my mom. She was very beautiful. Well, she still is, but she's gotten older.
Steven Bartlett: Can you take me into your earliest context, just so I can get a view of what childhood was like for you? I want to understand how that context and early experience fed into the man you are today, the perspective you have, the values you cherish.
President Zelenskyy: I'm from the generation that straddled two different lives — meaning I was born in the Soviet Union, when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, and I grew up in an independent Ukraine. I've always said that my kids are lucky because they were born in an independent country, without all these shades of grey. For them it's black and white, totally clear. They're patriots. They love their country and their country is Ukraine. While we were born in the Soviet Union.
We were kids from a fairly — I don't want to offend anyone, so my dad doesn't get upset — from a regular, very ordinary family. Not very well off. Let's put it that way. That's totally clear from the photos. I was born in Kryvyi Rih, an academic family in Soviet-era Ukraine. Not like in Europe or in the United States — an academic family with everything provided. Usually our academics didn't make a lot of money, but again I'm not complaining. I respect my father, an honest man, a professor. Values. I got an education, I got raised right, and my parents' love. I think those three things are enough to be grateful to your parents.
Steven Bartlett: When you were a young boy in those photos, under the age of ten, had I asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you have answered?
President Zelenskyy: To be honest, I changed like the wind. There was a time when I really wanted to be a diplomat, wanted to be a border guard. Then I went to law school, graduated from the law faculty, and while studying I realised I was more interested in media. So I got out and started working in that exact field.
Steven Bartlett: At 17 years old you became interested in comedy and you joined a comedy group. You did that up until the age of about 26, before starting a media company.
President Zelenskyy: I was more — I enjoyed being a scriptwriter, and sometimes as a writer I also did a little acting. I enjoyed it. Until I was 26, and then at 26 I got my own company.
Steven Bartlett: There are some interesting stats I found. At 28 years old you won Ukraine's Dancing with the Stars.
President Zelenskyy: Yeah.
Steven Bartlett: So you can dance?
President Zelenskyy: I think yes. I'm not sure I can now.
Steven Bartlett: And later you voiced Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian language film.
President Zelenskyy: I really loved that. I think Paddington is a very cool thing, really right for the people. I'm not sure all of it is just for kids, to be honest. But nonetheless, that character resonated deeply with me. Even after I became president, the next Paddington instalment was coming out — all this was before the war — and they were sending me signals: would you consider voicing another Paddington movie? I said I'd really love to, but I didn't.
Steven Bartlett: And then between 34 and 37 years old, you appeared in a bunch of different feature films. And most interestingly, you starred as a particular character — a school teacher who accidentally becomes president — in the satirical TV series called Servant of the People.
President Zelenskyy: Teacher of history.
Steven Bartlett: You've got to explain the context here, because people can't believe this is true. They can't believe that you actually acted as an actor who accidentally becomes president. You must find it bizarre that you then became president, because presumably at that time you weren't expecting to become president when you became an actor pretending to be president.
President Zelenskyy: Absolutely. I definitely didn't expect it. This idea came to me about ten to twelve years ago. I lived with this idea for a long time. I love doing that. And at some point the feeling was that the world is changing, Ukraine is changing, and right now this idea is relevant. It will resonate and people will like it.
Steven Bartlett: What was the idea? When you say the idea —
President Zelenskyy: A person from the people, without any history, without any political background, becomes president. And that's how it turned out, to be honest.
So you were playing a character in a TV series called Servant of the People, and the character was pretending to be the president. And you realised that actually the idea of there being a servant of the people party or president was probably quite a good idea based on what was going on in Ukraine at that time. And because of the government instability at the time, you actually registered Servant of the People as a real political party in Ukraine.
President Zelenskyy: Well, that sounds basically like a pretty good script. But it wasn't honestly calculated like that. The series was very popular. In parallel, there were a few other projects — we had a political satire project that was very popular, even before that series. So I already had my bearings in politics.
The point was that indeed I decided to try my hand in this direction. After the occupation of Crimea, after the occupation of Donbas, this whole situation changed us. You started to feel like something was going wrong, and it's war, but there still wasn't that feeling yet because it wasn't a full-scale war. We were doing business with Belarus and with Kazakhstan and with Russia as well. We had offices and projects that we were filming. Life changed. I wanted to drop it all, and this sense of betrayal by Russia — all of that happened, and that's why you change. This whole period changed you as well.
It's not like it was some calculated plan — the TV show comes out and then a political party. Some people might think that, and that's fine. That's normal. People have their own opinions. It coincided: the mood in society coincided with my inner mood and with my determination and desire. So it's a coincidence of many things.
When Did the War Begin?
Steven Bartlett: You talked about how it was really a change in the climate in Ukraine that caused you to move closer to politics because of everything going on at the time. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, they annexed Crimea, and four years after this point you announced you were going to run for president. Is this really when the war began in your view? Some people say the war began a thousand years ago. Some people say it began in 2014 and some say it began in 2022. In your mind, when did the war begin?
President Zelenskyy: I think for many people that time really is different. But if we take the new Ukraine that regained its independence in 1991, then I think that in 2014, all of us just couldn't believe it that this kind of occupation was happening. The war really started with the occupation of Crimea. That's true. It's just that it was slow — that occupation didn't look much like a war. Why? Because Ukraine wasn't fighting back at that point. When they occupied Crimea, there were shots fired there, of course. But for a very long time, Russia wouldn't admit these were its people. They looked like regular people. They even called them "little green men" — because you couldn't tell what that uniform was. These were people carrying some kind of weapons on the peninsula. And the problem was that there were no clear orders from the Ukrainian authorities that you need to defend your land, that someone violated your borders with weapons and is gradually seizing Crimea. So it was really that kind of creeping occupation.
Looking at that time today — not back in 2014 or 2015, but today — you realise that's when the war really began. Our mistake was not pushing them back. And of course, if there had been an order to defend the country, I'm sure that a full-scale war in the form it has today wouldn't have happened. Well, at least that's how it seems to me.
Steven Bartlett: I read that your great-grandfather's four brothers were killed by the Nazis, and his grandfather was the only brother to survive the war. I wondered how that experience of having that in your family tree has changed how you think about this moment in time, when you're facing a war with Russia.
President Zelenskyy: My grandfather went through World War II from start to finish — my grandfather, my father's dad. He was from a family where there were several brothers, and all of them were killed by the Nazis. I have very few relatives in general on both sides of my family. Many relatives were killed by the fascists. And that's why it always sounded so bizarre when Russia accused Ukraine of supposedly having Nazis. It's bizarre and completely wild. If people knew even a little bit of history, they would realise that fascism in Ukraine doesn't exist. Why? Because Ukraine understands deep in its roots what it means to be under the fascists. During World War II, Ukraine was occupied 100% — completely, totally — whereas Russia was not occupied. Ukraine and Belarus stood and fought. Russia was not occupied, and that is also very important to understand.
That's why all of our people in Ukraine saw it as barbaric and an outrage when Putin attacked us and said we have fascism and he's liberating Ukraine from fascists. It's absurd. We fought against the fascists. We were the ones liberating them.
Putin's Ambitions and the Historical Context
Steven Bartlett: A lot of people don't have the historical context on how this all began. If I was a 16-year-old and I had no understanding of geopolitics and I asked you, "Could you explain to me the background context I need to understand what the hell is going on? Why is Russia going into Crimea? What is Vladimir Putin's perspective? Why does he think that's okay? Why does he think he can invade Ukraine?" — what is the historical context explained in the simplest terms?
President Zelenskyy: There was an empire called the Soviet Union. That empire included a large number of what are now independent states. It's always like that with empires. Empires exist for a while and then they collapse, because you can only hold everything together through autocracy — a territory like that, so many people, through tyranny, through feudalism, through slavery, certainly not through freedom. Empires don't survive on freedom.
Why do empires fall apart? Because people want to be free. Because people compare their lives in an empire with life in other countries, even small ones. They see how things develop there, how they live, walk freely, choose any partner they want, whatever hair colour they like, music, clothes, and so on. The Soviet Union — these empires — always had what they called the iron curtain. Why an iron curtain? So you wouldn't see what's out there in the west, in Europe, in the United States, in Britain, or anywhere in Asia. A complete information vacuum. No internet, nothing. Television that you run and control. People get information, people live like fish in a fish tank. The fish tank can be massive, like the Soviet Union, but it's still a fish tank. North Korea is a smaller fish tank, but it's a fish tank.
The Soviet Union fell apart. Countries became independent. Ukraine is one of those countries. When identity emerges, you have your own language, your own music, your own clothes. The Soviet Union fell apart, but nostalgia for the Soviet Union stayed with people. Putin was the president of Russia and he set a goal for himself. He's a purely Soviet man, a very Soviet man. He was an intelligence officer. He worked in the KGB in Germany and so on. He said — and this is his very famous phrase — that the greatest collapse of the 20th century in the world was the fall of the Soviet Union. All of that shows that Russia just wasn't enough for him. He had the ambition to go back to that, to bring back the empire, to bring back the Soviet Union, because he believes that another major country is to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which one? The United States of America. Because this has always been a geopolitical war. They're enemies — the Soviet Union and the United States of America were allies during World War II, and after that came the Cold War.
So it's very simple. Putin wanted to bring back the Soviet Union. And what is the Soviet Union? It is above all Ukraine. They called the Soviet Union a forge of talent. In Ukraine there were so many people who later led — there was that kind of education, many scientists, many engineers, many universities, a huge intelligentsia. Many people who came from Ukraine then ran various institutions and ministries in the Soviet Union. Ukraine was always the biggest rocket manufacturer. Nuclear weapons, which Ukraine handed over. A lot of things were made in Ukraine.
And what's the problem for Russia? If Ukraine becomes part of Europe — and without the Soviet Union, Ukraine started taking gradual steps in the other direction — then Russia will collapse. It will fall apart into many different countries. And Putin decided to piece this whole empire back together. Where do you start? He started the war in Chechnya. He occupied Chechnya, a small country that is now part of Russia. He destroyed it completely. Everything that's happening in eastern Ukraine — it's the very same military commanders who fought in Chechnya who destroyed Chechnya completely. There was nothing left, no buildings, nothing. A huge number of people were killed in Chechnya. And he occupied it.
And then he decided to bring back the empire starting with Ukraine — a free state, one that wants to be in the European Union, one that is smart and intellectual. There always has to be a pretext to start an occupation. The pretext is always language. He starts with Crimea. Why? In Crimea there were a lot of Russian-speaking people, Russian-speaking Ukrainians. But to understand this — in Crimea there was deportation, more than one deportation and expulsion of the Tatars. Crimea has indigenous peoples and it's a multiethnic peninsula.
He started the occupation with Crimea and with the Donbas, with the east. Why? Because he divided society, unleashed this war based on language. Because language is always such a painful issue. When you want to divide society, you start bringing up the language issue. So he brought it up, said that he's protecting Russian-speaking people, which wasn't true. Nobody took anything from anyone. But it was just easier. The east of the country borders with the Russian Federation.
Steven Bartlett: The day before Vladimir Putin ordered troops to invade Ukraine, he did a statement where he said, "Modern Ukraine was entirely and completely created by Russia — more precisely, Bolshevik, communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 revolution. Soviet Ukraine is the result of Bolshevik policy and can rightly be called Vladimir Lenin's Ukraine. Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood." So he's very much denying that Ukraine is a nation of its own. Why did he choose to invade on February 24th? If he had invaded Crimea in 2014, why was that the moment where he decided to cross the border and try to take control of the whole of Ukraine?
President Zelenskyy: First of all, notice he talks about the Soviet revolution of 1917. That's ridiculous to anyone. Your country's history can't start in 1917. In Ukraine, there are churches — everyone knows we have very beautiful churches that are a thousand years old, Ukrainian churches painted by Ukrainians, total master professionals. A thousand years old. Ukraine is the heir to Kievan Rus, a great state that was very well known in Europe, with an advanced civilisation, with its own art, with its own traditions. Russia wasn't even close to existing. Russia came after Ukraine already existed. But he cuts all that out and starts with the revolution. Why? From the October Revolution of 1917, because he's talking about the history of the Soviet Union, not about the history of Russia and not about the history of Ukraine. He's signalling to people in Russia — the kids get information in schools and they take it, they don't go any deeper — he's signalling to them that their life is the Soviet Union and that's where we're heading back to.
He started a full-scale war. The war started on February 24th, 2022. Missile strikes were launched immediately from every side. Troops were also entering from the territory of Belarus, right from there, because it's the closest route to the capital. They were advancing on Kyiv and also came from all directions. The main goal was to seize the capital of Ukraine.
The Invasion — February 24th, 2022
Steven Bartlett: Why in February 2022? Why not later? Why not sooner? Why was that the moment? Part of the reason I ask is because President Donald Trump often blames Joe Biden for being weak and giving Vladimir Putin an opportunity to invade because he didn't respect President Biden. Is there truth in that?
President Zelenskyy: I'll explain. A little bit earlier, in 2021, there was a Biden-Putin summit. We didn't have all the details. They came out and started talking publicly, and then rumours started that they discussed the issue of a possible escalation against Ukraine. We kept bringing this up with the Americans over the next few months — this could really happen. We asked them: please give us what we need to defend ourselves if there are such risks. We couldn't imagine that a full-scale invasion would start, because we saw what Russian occupation looked like with Crimea and with Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. You imagined it differently. You couldn't imagine that overnight missiles would just start flying. Nobody had ever seen anything like that. Why were kids screaming? Why were people fleeing? Why was there absolute chaos? Those were absolutely horrifying moments, because missiles are literally flying at you. Nowadays, a thousand drones fly in and we shoot them down. We fight. But back then, right around 4:00 in the morning, missiles were raining down on your head. Everyone was in shock.
So he did it in February because that's what he wanted to do. That was his plan. I think he told Biden a whole lot of things. I remember — unfortunately — that President Biden stepped in later, in the first minutes or days of the war. I had a call with him back then when he offered to evacuate me. A lot of people offered me help. I said, "Give us weapons, help us defend the country." And I think they realised it's impossible to occupy us. I think the United States back then maybe did consider that there'd be a conflict and we might be occupied, but nobody counted on us holding out for sure.
I remember — I think a day before, God, that was so long ago, I've forgotten so much already — a day before the invasion, the Europeans who knew less than the Americans were talking with Putin, and Putin promised them there wouldn't be an invasion. He lied to all of them. He knew there would be an invasion. He knew everything.
Steven Bartlett: When did you first get a phone call telling you that Russia were planning to invade Ukraine? How many days before it happened did you get that call? And who was the call from?
President Zelenskyy: It was never direct, like "Russia plans an invasion on such and such day and there will be a full-scale war." It was never like that. These were very cautious diplomatic signals. We kept bringing up this issue. Why? Because people were worried, and that affected the economy and the stability of the national currency, which started to drop. We asked the Americans: give us a clear signal. If you believe this is war, then give us weapons urgently — everything you can give. But nobody would give anything.
And I asked: impose sanctions. That's something everybody in Europe knew about. I asked President Biden: impose sanctions on Russia now, preemptively. If you know there could be an invasion, impose sanctions. Then he won't go in if he's really decided to. But President Biden said we'll impose sanctions if there's an invasion — post-factum, not preemptive sanctions. I'm not God to judge a president, but I believe that was a mistake in my view.
Steven Bartlett: Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, but in October 2021, the Director of National Intelligence and CIA Director briefed US leadership and top NATO allies that Putin was making concrete plans for a multi-front invasion. European media published satellite imagery showing 100,000 Russian troops, tanks, and field hospitals that had started to emerge. The CIA Director flew to Moscow to warn Putin directly against invading in November 2021. Then in December 2021, the US government took the rare step of declassifying intelligence maps and troop estimates, predicting an invasion force of up to 175,000 troops, to prevent Russia from using a false flag operation as a pretext. And then in late January and early February 2022, the US National Security Adviser publicly warned that an invasion could begin at any time, urging foreign citizens to evacuate Ukraine. And then on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched a full-scale invasion from multiple sides, with the focus on Kyiv.
Can you remember where you were when you realised that they had crossed multiple borders of Ukraine at the same time? If I was a fly on the wall in whatever room you were in, what would I have seen?
President Zelenskyy: First of all, I'd like you to know that in Belarus, the Russians were conducting drills, training — these were annual drills. That's very important, because when we talked to our partners and they briefed folks from NATO and so on, nobody fully believed it. Why? Because everybody said they were just sabre-rattling. Putin was intentionally trying to scare everyone. He wouldn't launch an invasion. European leaders called him. He said, "I won't invade." He had military exercises in Belarus. On top of that, our defence minister was invited there to these exercises and he was there. Just so you understand — imagine that. He went there, came back, and then the full-scale invasion started from multiple directions.
What the Europeans said, echoing my messages, was: impose sanctions and give weapons to the Ukrainians. If you know an invasion is coming, the Americans didn't do that. They didn't give weapons and didn't impose sanctions. And that's why everyone had doubts. Everyone thought the Russians were just bluffing. Why? Because he wanted to push us into the Minsk agreements so that we'd give them Donbas and recognise Donbas as not Ukraine, and also recognise Crimea as not Ukraine. That was the format of pressure. But what happened, happened.
Steven Bartlett: What did you believe?
President Zelenskyy: I didn't think there would be a full-scale invasion. I didn't think so, because I believed that if people know there's going to be a full-scale invasion — partners and so on — and they don't take preemptive steps, don't sit him down at the table, don't tell him, "Are you out of your mind? Have you lost your mind to wage war in the 21st century, to kill people?" — even so, a full-scale invasion happened, and they approached Kyiv really quickly. It was just an avalanche.
I was with my family. I got a call from the office. Before that, during the night, missiles were flying. I got ready, told my wife, told the kids, told them the war has started, and went to the office. I arrived at the office — I was the first or second person there — and I called everyone in and we started the work day. Such a terrible work day. The first one during the full-scale war.
Steven Bartlett: What did your wife say?
President Zelenskyy: I don't remember. It was very fast. Everything happened so fast. I told my wife, "Wake up quickly. The war has started. I love you. I'll call you." And ran up.
Steven Bartlett: And life has not been the same since.
President Zelenskyy: Absolutely. It's just a different life. Everything is different. 100%.
The Defence of Kyiv
Steven Bartlett: When I was doing my research on that day when Russia invaded, what I couldn't believe is just the volume of troops that rolled across the border. I read that there was a 65-kilometre convoy of armoured vehicles and troops on one particular road as they tried to take Kyiv. I also want to get an answer to this outstanding question in my head, which is: Trump has repeatedly said that this never would have begun, it never would have happened if he was president. Do you believe that?
President Zelenskyy: I think that no, nobody knows the answer honestly. The fact remains that this happened during Biden's presidency. That's a fact. It's a fact that this didn't happen under Trump. A fact. But it's also a fact that Putin chose the moment for a full occupation. That's also a fact. I think Trump had a special relationship with Putin and still does. And maybe it really is possible that Trump being on friendly terms with Putin could have prevented a full-scale invasion. But one thing you have to know for sure: neither I nor Trump are eternal in these presidential seats. Either way, Trump's presidency would have ended, and Putin still wouldn't have been able to change his main goal — the occupation of Ukraine. So I think that honestly it doesn't matter who the president is, as long as Putin is there.
Steven Bartlett: On February 24th, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it is reported that they sent — there are different numbers, but some go up to 200,000 troops assembled across the Ukrainian border. When I look at the total active number of troops in Ukraine at the time, it's almost the same number. So it's almost as if Russia deployed the full size of your active duty personnel into Ukraine to attack Ukraine and specifically to take Kyiv. Can you explain in simple terms how they staged that attack? You said some troops came in from Belarus, there was support trying to take Kyiv as well.
President Zelenskyy: They knew that our main forces were in the east of our country — Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Why were our main units there? Because when part of it was occupied — when Donetsk was occupied, Makiivka, all of that was after the occupation of Crimea — this entire part was occupied. Very strong troops were stationed here, strong both in terms of numbers and strength, and the separatists were fighting against us. These aren't just Russians — these are separatists who considered it their homeland. So there were both separatists and Russians here. This was their strongest grouping, and our strongest grouping was stationed right here to hold back the strongest Russian grouping so it wouldn't break through.
Nobody expected that they would go through Belarus and advance on the capital. That's why we didn't have any strong troops there. That is an absolute fact. We simply didn't have that kind of army. The entire Ukrainian army — I later changed the law to make it 200,000 plus up to 250,000. But before that, it was an even smaller force. And just imagine 200,000 people are coming at you. It's simply impossible to defend. You need an army like the one we have today — 800,000 — which was actually the main problem for the Russian troops when they couldn't take our capital. We held out and destroyed them. They didn't have enough troops to hold the occupied territories, and they had to pull back. We were hitting them and they were pulling back. And that's how we fully took back the Kyiv region, the Chernihiv region, and that whole front. We completely restored it and pushed them out entirely.
It's completely obvious — they just didn't have enough troops. Just like at first, when they pushed in, we didn't have a strong army there. We didn't have enough troops. And later the same happened to them. Naturally, when the full-scale invasion started, there was mobilisation and people showed up as volunteers, and our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000. While the Russian presence was around 700,000 probably at that moment across all directions on Ukrainian territory. This was a massive onslaught coming in.
Steven Bartlett: In late February, satellite imagery captured a massive 64-kilometre — 40-mile — long Russian military convoy backed up along a single highway leading to Kyiv. When you see 64 kilometres of military vehicles and armoured vehicles heading to one city and then hear that they failed to take that city — how?
President Zelenskyy: They captured, by the way, the Chernobyl nuclear plant where the disaster happened. All of that was occupied. That whole route was occupied. They occupied it and blockaded Kyiv. How did we — people stepped up, people went to mobilise. A huge number on the first day. We left the country, headed toward western Ukraine. They left, but a lot of people stayed, mobilised, and we brought up our troops and started fighting them day after day. We pushed back harder. They cut off our food, cut off our water, cut everything off completely. That was their mission. They expected people to run, and me — certain people came to me and said, "Kyiv is cut off and surrounded, and the Russians are suggesting you hand over your powers." Meaning Kyiv must surrender. Naturally, I told those people where to go — let's put it that way — out of my office.
And then leaders were calling, offering to evacuate before all the roads were blocked, to get out of Kyiv.
Steven Bartlett: Who called you and asked you if you wanted to be evacuated? Did they make you an offer to evacuate you themselves?
President Zelenskyy: Biden. He was the first. The first.
Steven Bartlett: What did he say?
President Zelenskyy: "We are ready to help you evacuate," because naturally, well, the invasion — Kyiv is surrounded — and "we are ready to help you and your family." Likewise, many Europeans offered me that later. Several Europeans, and people around me from our political circle also suggested doing all that.
Steven Bartlett: What did you say to Biden?
President Zelenskyy: I need ammunition, not a ride.
Steven Bartlett: Did you tell your wife and your family to leave?
President Zelenskyy: Nobody could go anywhere, because that was a choice — that was theirs. Naturally, they weren't in the office with me. The security detail took them and they went to another location. Because it was clear there was shooting right around the president's office, and it was obvious how this could all end. They asked me to go down to the bunker — it was very deep underground, built right inside my office. In that bunker I started working. That's where Biden called me. All around my office was secured by snipers and various special services, and I was in the bunker down there. I had communications and I spoke with all the leaders from there. That's where I first did a video call with the Europeans, pleading with them to unite, help Ukraine, not abandon us. And it worked.
I continued being there, going out into the street, talking to the people, showing myself, because in those first few days there were so many narratives. Russia was putting out a lot of information claiming I had fled. Their whole idea was for people to run, and people would run if they saw that their leader had abandoned them. If the leader abandoned the capital, then everyone has to survive on their own. That was the whole story. They wanted me to run. And I couldn't abandon Kyiv, the office, the people. It's just impossible. That would be betrayal — betrayal of my human decency and the constitution of Ukraine.
The Russians constantly pushed information that I wasn't there — then that I was spotted at the border, then that I was seen somewhere else, then in other countries. All of that forced me to go out into the street all the time. Two, three times a day, I made a decision to constantly communicate, constantly say something to people so people could see that I was in the office on Bankova, that I hadn't fled anywhere, hadn't run away. That was important for the military too. Later on, with time, the military told me that it meant a lot to them. They stood strong, fought, defended, and liberated Kyiv because they believed they were liberating their capital, their home, and their president. He didn't abandon us, he stayed with us. That's what they said. Well, it was my duty. I don't see it as some kind of very special choice of mine. I believe this was the only way I could act.
Steven Bartlett: Were you scared? You have a nuclear power, one of the biggest militaries in the world, with 64 miles of military equipment heading towards where you are, invading also by air, firing missiles into the cities you're in, and your family are in. You've made the decision you're going to stay. Were you scared?
President Zelenskyy: Scared? It's a different feeling. It's not about fear. It's about being laser-focused on what needs to be done right now. We were working at such speed, I can't even tell you. I was just running around the office, running, making decisions, calling leaders. I had dozens of calls with leaders every single day, every hour, every second. I'd run outside, come back, talk to the military, come back. I just had no breaks.
I only realised it all about 20 days into the war. I just realised that something happened, something terrible. When the speed slightly began to shift, you started to realise, "My God, this is war. This is a horrible war." But at first I was just working. Honestly, I have this trait — I don't even think it's just me. People have this trait: to pull yourself together when you're in shock, when people around you are in shock and you see it in their eyes. You realise that you need to act right now. Just act. Act every second. Draw conclusions. Kyiv is blockaded — open it up. Tell the military, "Open the road. We need food to get in, water." That's what crisis management is. In tough situations, that's usually how I act. It's not like I'm the bravest person. It's just that when this kind of thing hits and I see people around me falling apart, I pull myself together completely. And only later, once you've relaxed, you realise that a terrible tragedy occurred — a war — and it's just immense grief.
Steven Bartlett: When did things slow down enough for you to realise the severity and the impact of the tragedy that had taken place and the lives that were lost? Was there a particular moment?
President Zelenskyy: The first few days I didn't sleep at all. The first few days we just worked. I was sleeping about 15 minutes here and there, because my entire job was communication. I was talking in circles with every leader. Deliver this over there. Do that there. We set up flawless logistics for weapons. I was talking at night with Poland, with Andrzej Duda. There was a warehouse there. We were waking leaders up — in the middle of the night. About 20 days later into the war, everything started coming together into some steps that needed to be taken, into some kind of realisation that a war had begun. War, tragedy, and we have to move forward.
At first it was crisis management: unblock, bring back troops, break the siege of Kyiv, strike back at them. And definitely the most crucial things were communications, food, water, the population. So many cities were cut off. It wasn't just the banking system — making sure cards worked. We're a pretty digitalised country, so a lot of things were done in those first weeks. We were faster than the Russians. They broke through quickly toward Kyiv, and once we stopped them at Kyiv, we became much faster in the information space. We shattered their whole wave of disinformation and just broke them down step by step until they realised that they had lost the capital to us. And then it became clear that we had to push harder. Our partners helped. Our partners realised that we wouldn't give up and they started helping.
What Russia Underestimated
Steven Bartlett: It is often said that Vladimir Putin believed he would be able to take Kyiv in just a number of days. Captured Russian assault units carried only three to ten days of combat rations alongside formal dress uniforms meant for a victory parade. State media accidentally released a pre-scheduled victory declaration on day three. Although Putin never publicly uttered a specific time frame himself, there are top Russian state media figures who openly bragged that the conquest would take only a few days. What is it that they underestimated about Ukraine?
President Zelenskyy: That's right. Exactly what you started with today — that Ukraine is not Russia. That's his problem. Refusing to recognise a separate nation, refusing to recognise a separate country. That's what did him in. He still doesn't understand. He looks at Ukraine as Russia, as part of Russia. "I'll march in with an army. We'll have hundreds of thousands of men. He'll slam his fist on the table. The president will run away. People will hide and the Ukrainian flag will be swapped for the Russian flag." Three days. We showed a military operation that was supposed to take three days.
When our guys hit their tanks and stuff, we found parade uniforms. It's true. They found parade uniforms in their military vehicles. They were literally marching to a parade. They specifically wanted to capture Kyiv in three days and symbolically hold some kind of pseudo-victory spectacle on the Maidan — on Independence Square. He still doesn't understand and doesn't want to admit that this is a different nation, a different people.
Steven Bartlett: Just 12 hours ago, Trump weighed in on what he believed happened with Kyiv and why Vladimir Putin wasn't able to take it. This is what he said. I'll throw it up on the screen.
President Trump (video clip): "But then it was supposed to be a very much, you know, very quick war, right? And if you remember the tanks going up the highway right into Kyiv. Had the general who was obviously not a very good general not made a right turn into farmland which was soaked and soaking wet from the heaviest rain in ten years, they say — he went right up into the mud and it was like quicksand and those tanks. So they got — I guess I don't know if you're caught lucky or not lucky, frankly, because it's been five years and Ukraine has lost a tremendous — you know, Ukraine has lost so many of its men. Number one, had they not taken the right turn onto dirt instead of going up a concrete highway, it would have ended in one day."
Steven Bartlett: So Trump says that it was a Russian mistake — taking a wrong turn — that stopped this war being over in a day.
President Zelenskyy: No. They surrounded Kyiv. They reached Kyiv. They occupied towns on the way to Kyiv. Some they didn't occupy — towns fought back. They bypassed them. If someone took a wrong turn, I don't know what President Trump is talking about. With all the armour they lost near Kyiv, Hostomel and so on — dozens, hundreds of armoured vehicles burned. They trapped us and then we started hammering them, and they didn't know what to do about it. Because some of their armour breached into Kyiv, right into the capital. Armoured vehicles drove through the streets and people burned it all down. They were especially shocked when they drove toward the capital and people were just throwing burning debris. People were setting their armour on fire.
It wasn't a matter of some general being an idiot. I believe the one who gave the order just didn't fully realise what was happening. Didn't really get what it would take. And that's the main point. They needed around 300,000 to 400,000 to take Kyiv. They needed twice as many men. Why? Because taking Kyiv — when you've taken those towns on the way to Kyiv, you have to leave troops behind to hold those towns. And that takes a huge number of people. It's a pretty large territory. You can avoid leaving many troops there only if there's no resistance. But if the people inside offer resistance, then you need an army to hold every town. That was their mistake. They didn't estimate right. They didn't even realise there would be resistance. That was their main mistake.
For example, if you take that operation back in 2014 when they went in and seized Crimea — in Crimea there are three million people, and Kyiv had three million people. Dozens of people entered Crimea, at most hundreds. And here, hundreds of thousands. It's not about the operation. The difference is people defended it, stood up and fought. In Crimea, no one fought back. Which is why I said: when dozens of people showed up in Crimea — where Trump is right is that if Crimea hadn't been allowed to fall, there would be no war today. I agree with President Trump on that. Not because I'm blaming anyone. It's just that dozens of people went into Crimea. Dozens. For a country like this, that's zero. That's nothing. We handled hundreds of thousands.
And if they'd been hit back then — the Russians, those people wearing uniforms — the Russians would have even said, "That's not our army, look at the uniforms." And if they'd been hit back then, well, it wouldn't have happened. At least there wouldn't have been a chance of a full-scale war. Why? Because Putin would have known there would be a blow, there would be a response. But what was his mistake here? First of all, when he saw how Crimea was seized so easily, that's why he thought he could seize Kyiv just as easily. That was his experience.
The Battle of Hostomel Airport
Steven Bartlett: There's quite a famous battle that took place to secure the Antonov airport — Hostomel. I watched a documentary on this a couple of months ago and it feels like it was a really pivotal moment in defending Kyiv. What were Russia trying to do?
President Zelenskyy: For them it was crucial to seize the airports. Hostomel is one of the airports where a massive landing force could land. Here's how a takeover works: block Kyiv, capture the airports, basically TV towers and so forth — seize information logistics and cut off supplies of food, weapons, and so on. That's basically the plan. And you need the leader to run, because no leader means chaos, no chain of command. That's what they were doing. There was a terrible battle in Hostomel. Our people burned them there, and they had very tough combat units. They couldn't land a large force there. They were destroyed. Hostomel was taken back. Our troops controlled it. That was one of the most striking battles. A terrible battle.
Steven Bartlett: They flew in with paratroopers — they parachuted people into that airport to try and claim it. And they originally did seize the airport. And then there was an immediate counterattack where Ukrainian National Guard units and special forces shelled and destroyed the runway yourself — you destroyed your own runway — while air defence units shot down several Russian transport helicopters. And from what I understood, you took the airport back.
President Zelenskyy: That's right. Changed hands back and forth. That's how it was.
Steven Bartlett: And if they had been able to seize that airport, how would that have changed the situation with Kyiv?
President Zelenskyy: They likely could have taken most of the capital. They could have broken through and captured it. That's true. That was an utterly heroic battle.
Steven Bartlett: When you hear these stories, you realise that the future of Ukraine comes down to both heroism but also several small moments. When you reflect on that month, that moment, are there any other small moments that you think really defined the future of Ukraine?
President Zelenskyy: Just so you know, today — places like Hostomel, then further up Moshchun, and several small towns around Kyiv — there was a desperate battle for every single one of those towns. Why the National Guard? Because back then the full army couldn't reach it yet. But the National Guard are internal troops, so they were there, and we brought in army units. Nonetheless, that's why it was an utterly heroic battle.
Bucha — The Atrocities
There was Bucha, you know, that they occupied. It was terrible. It was a genocide recognised by everyone. They buried hundreds of people. They tortured people — I mean, tortured them. Hundreds of people were in a mass grave. They found a grave with, I believe, around 500 people — half a thousand people in a grave like that. Just imagine: hands tied, tortured, and then buried in pits. That's what was happening.
People seeing all this — this looked nothing like a war. It was definitely pure looting when they occupied those towns on the way to Kyiv and around Kyiv. They just went into homes, just killed, took microwaves, refrigerators, TVs. They acted like — well, I can't even describe it. They're just scavengers. And all these people — they tied their hands, tortured them. There was sexual violence, everything. And they buried people right in the yard, dumped people. When we liberated those towns, there emerged this kind of such hatred for the Russians. Right at that moment — not even at the moment when they started the full-scale war. Back then, nobody understood what it really was yet. People understood what this war was and what Putin did personally when we found those mass graves of tortured adults and children. They didn't just kill them — they tortured and killed them.
Steven Bartlett: Children.
President Zelenskyy: That's right. And then you realise — just imagine what they went through. There's no comparison to what all these people lived through. Why Bucha is so horrifying, and why the Russians immediately started saying it's a staged performance — we brought in journalists. The entire world press was there. They saw the bodies. I deliberately, when we liberated Bucha, I went there. Once I saw it, I said, "Bring every journalist here. Don't touch anything. Just bring the journalists. The whole world simply has to see this." And they brought the journalists. People were literally lying on the pavement. Dead bodies lying everywhere — kids, adults, elderly people.
Witnesses who had stayed behind in Bucha — an elderly man, this was a very famous story there. He had survived the occupation of this town during World War II. And he said the fascists never treated people like that. Yes, they were enemies, yes, occupiers, but they didn't torture people like that. This is absolute reality. There are testimonies, there's evidence, there are criminal cases.
And how, after all this — it was already a long time ago, in the first year of the full-scale war, and sometimes people need to be reminded. When you see a mass grave today — finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, adults, kids, dogs, animals shot dead — they held hunting sprees there from military vehicles. People were running, they were shooting, just hunting, playing games the whole time. They were blockading Kyiv right up until the moment we liberated it. There were people in those villages, and they literally just played with people like slavery. Imagine that.
So how, after this, can you listen to Putin? And how, after this, can you forgive? And that's why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise — and believe me, we live with this — a ceasefire and sitting down at the negotiating table is a huge compromise. It is a huge compromise. Nobody can step into the shoes of all these people and the relatives whose children were tortured. Nobody wants to forgive them for anything. And you can't force people to forgive. How can you force them when their child was tortured? How do you forgive? It's impossible.
But that's why we say a ceasefire is the only step, because people have such hatred. It's not going away. It takes time and justice. And that's why it's a huge compromise. I've always really wanted — I've tried many times to tell the President of the United States: just understand us. This is a huge compromise, just to hold the lines where we are. That's what it feels like.
Steven Bartlett: What was your hardest day through the last four years? What's the day that will live long in your brain, your mind, your memory?
President Zelenskyy: Bucha. What I just told you. That was a terrible day, because I stood there. I had never seen people's bodies just scattered on the street in my entire life. I had simply never seen anything like that in my life. And after that, everything changed completely. Once again, everything changed in life.
Steven Bartlett: Everything has changed.
President Zelenskyy: Absolutely.
Steven Bartlett: In what way?
President Zelenskyy: You want revenge. I had never had it where I couldn't forgive someone. And by and large, I think people make mistakes. This is about something else — evil like that, a devil like that, just came in like that, did that to people like chopped meat, butchered them. And you just can't fathom how that's possible. And you want to find these people who aren't human. You want to find them and you just want to kill them. I mean, I had never wanted to kill a single human being. I had never felt anything like that. Pure revenge. With time, you can't forget that. And in moments like this — and our conversation brings back moments like that — you have to be president and you have to come down and be more diplomatic. You can't just forgive everything like that and say, "Well, sorry, that's Putin, a powerful country. Let's just forget everything, let's forgive everything, and somehow we'll buy and sell gas or diesel or whatever." That's difficult. You understand?
Steven Bartlett: Do you ever worry about how this experience has changed you? Because you have been irreversibly changed by this. I can tell both from meeting you and looking at how you used to be three, four, five years ago. You've been irreversibly changed. And you're a father and you're a husband, and at some point this war will be over, God willing. Do you ever think about how you're irreversibly changed?
President Zelenskyy: You can't bring it back. It's just two different worlds. A re-evaluation of values. My only dream is to end this war. I desperately want justice. I just really want — I know so many people had their hearts ripped out, and there won't be a new heart. You have to give them at least something. Some trial, some justice, at least some moral solace — it's an absolute must. You can't just leave it, because that hole inside them won't heal, and there will be revenge. And the revenge of so many people who lost everything naturally brings risks of some kind of ongoing military or combat actions. So it's not that simple. It doesn't just end like that.
Why do we talk about a just peace? Some people ask, "What is a just peace?" Well, somehow there has to be justice. The guilty must be punished. At the very least, you have to show a path that it will happen. Maybe not right now, but that it will happen. It's just totally impossible to simply forgive. And you realise that you want to be with your kids, with your wife. You just want to end the war and get a little bit of a life.
Family, Marriage, and Personal Life
Steven Bartlett: But if I asked Alina, your wife, how you have changed on a human level because of all of this, what might she say to me?
President Zelenskyy: I don't know. She'd definitely say I've changed a lot. Yeah, she tells me sometimes.
Steven Bartlett: What is she saying?
President Zelenskyy: Well, you know how it is. She focuses on different things, different values. You just want somehow to hold on to something, to the people close to you. You really crave that warmth. You want to break through this — in a war you fight and you're lonely. In life before this war, you're definitely not lonely because you have friends, company, business, then maybe politics. But you're not lonely. I run a country and this is about something completely different right now. But when you hug your family, it's just — it means there are people who love you. That matters.
Steven Bartlett: Do you miss them?
President Zelenskyy: Very much. Very much. Years have passed, you know, between this and this — years. I really miss them constantly. And it feels like that even when they're right next to me. It's just this habit of doing work and focusing exclusively on work. Even when they're near, I miss them sometimes. Again, I don't like to complain and I'm not complaining. I chose my own path. And of course I didn't choose the war, but I chose this path. Well, this war fell on my lifetime and on the lifetime of our generation.
Steven Bartlett: Your daughter — she's not a child anymore.
President Zelenskyy: Yeah, she's a young lady now. Very much so. She really has grown up. Yes. And all the children of Ukraine — it's true. I've said this. The children of Ukraine grew up during the war. Totally true. They are all so grown up. And it's so sad that childhood passed during a war. But nonetheless, we believe in peace. Peace will prevail anyway, 100%. My daughter and I are really great friends. She's grown up now. Her English is better.
Steven Bartlett: Do you get to spend a lot of time with the kids?
President Zelenskyy: When there's time, I try to be with them, to call. We talk. These days there are plenty of options. We talk online, we talk in different ways. That's how it is.
I've spent since I was 18 years old running businesses, and I thought that was a challenge. But it is incomparable. I think about how that pulled me away from the people in my life, my relationships, being so obsessed with business — but it's just totally incomparable to what it must be like to try and maintain those important relationships, especially with children, when your country is being invaded and you are the leader of that country. That presence matters. And those moments — this re-evaluation from this war and these images and these horrific moments definitely shows me that business is secondary. Everything is secondary. These people right here — that's what matters most. These years slip away, and in these intense moments you remember these people. It's important.
Steven Bartlett: And your wife, Alina, has been your rock through it all. I've heard you say she's been your stability throughout all of this.
President Zelenskyy: We support each other. That's true. I think I have a very smart wife and she is so real. We have real feelings. We have love and respect. I think that's very important — to respect each other. People should find each other interesting. I think that's the most important thing. People need to find each other interesting. And we find each other very interesting. We feel very good.
Steven Bartlett: The other very important woman in your life — your mother. I heard she calls you almost every day.
President Zelenskyy: Every single day.
Steven Bartlett: Really? Where is she living? Is she still in Ukraine?
When your mother calls you, what does she say every day? What is she asking you?
President Zelenskyy: Her first question is, "Did you actually pick up?" She's already like that, because I so often — I look and there are 12 missed calls. "Mom, I'm working." I tell her: 12 calls, how can you call someone so many times? And she keeps dialling. She'll call you all day long until I pick up. So we make sure to speak once a day. She asks how I'm feeling.
Steven Bartlett: And is she worried about you?
President Zelenskyy: Oh, yeah. "How are you? How are you feeling? How are the kids? Tell me. When is Putin going to end the war?" And I say, "Mom, we're doing everything we can."
The Current State of the War
Steven Bartlett: As things stand at the moment, for people who don't understand what's actually going on on the ground in Ukraine — where the Russian troops currently are, what life is like on a day-to-day basis if you're a Ukrainian — can you explain to me which parts of Ukraine are currently occupied and generally what life is like for Ukrainians at the moment?
President Zelenskyy: Occupied was Crimea. Then they took the Azov — that's an inland sea of ours, and that's our sea. They turned it into an inland sea. They took Mariupol. They took Berdyansk. All of the Azov. Kerch is a city on the Black Sea. They made it so we can't get out. Next, Oleshky — right now people and children are trapped there without food, without anything. They won't let them through. Right now we are working to unblock it. We fought to take back the major city of Kherson. We reclaimed it. Kherson is split by the Dnipro River. Our people live on one bank, the enemy is on the other bank, and that's why they shell Kherson. Zaporizhzhia is also under our control.
So they took Crimea, Donetsk region, Luhansk region. They couldn't take Kherson — this part is ours. From Kharkiv here — this is what they call Luhansk oblast. Zaporizhzhia is ours. Basically, all of this is roughly 18 to 19% of our territory. That's roughly it. Because their maps are one thing — they tell one story to their people. We have different maps. We believe we're right. They have their own approach to talking with society and presenting information, but roughly that's what it is.
Steven Bartlett: And they're attacking via missiles and drones other parts of Ukraine constantly.
President Zelenskyy: Completely. Yes. They're focused on — honestly, you could point everywhere here. They've already started today. Right here, they killed people in Lutsk. That's the western part of our country. A missile struck. They're hitting Kyiv. We went with the British secretary — 23 people killed. Kharkiv is under constant shelling. Rivne has fewer strikes. Lviv — this part has fewer strikes. This part is far away from the line of occupation, from the contact line, and from the Russian Federation. So obviously the distance is great, which is why there are no massive strikes there.
Steven Bartlett: What are they trying to accomplish? What does Putin want to pull out of the east of our country?
President Zelenskyy: Here's what he wants. He wants basically to take the city of Zaporizhzhia, but he can't. That's a target for him. Zaporizhzhia and Mykolaiv — all targets. But he doesn't say that. He doesn't say it. After all, we liberated those cities.
Steven Bartlett: But have you heard directly from them as to what their demands are? What they say they want in order to stop launching missiles?
President Zelenskyy: They basically say they want this entire piece — the east. That means they want Sloviansk. These are key cities — Sloviansk, Kramatorsk, Druzhkivka, and that leads right out into the Dnipropetrovsk region, into Pavlohrad, Dnipropetrovsk. Kryvyi Rih is my hometown. Nikopol is an industrial hub, an engineering hub, a manufacturing hub. It's the economy of our country. And so it's very dangerous, because if you surrender this part to them — and this is heavily reinforced defence of our nation right here — if we hand these cities of ours over to them, then the risk is huge. If he wants to keep going, he could seize a huge number of our cities if he pushes further. And the risk is real. Nobody guarantees anything.
Everyone talks about security guarantees, and we're completely open to that. We say, "Well, okay, security guarantees — let's do NATO." Well, NATO — the Russians keep sending signals. You have to give security guarantees. On top of that, like I told you, the biggest compromise with so many dead — the biggest compromise we're already making is a ceasefire. Let's just stop this war. But they want us to pull out even further. And if we pull out, where are the security guarantees? Aside from the fact that it's unfair.
Steven Bartlett: You talked about the barbaric nature of how they've treated Ukrainians. Are you at all concerned that they might escalate using more horrific weapons like nuclear weapons at any point? Has that ever crossed your mind?
President Zelenskyy: Well, it crosses everyone's mind after what they've done — that they might do something worse. But as of today, I don't think they'll take the risk of using nuclear weapons, because then I think they definitely won't have any allies left, including countries like America and China. That's far too dangerous even for nuclear powers. That means if one country can do it, then if there's a conflict somewhere else on another continent — in the Middle East, whatever — if a nuclear weapon is used once, it might be used a second and a third time. So I don't think Putin will risk nuclear weapons. But then again, we're dealing with a man and with a system that until the end of his days will hold on to him, and he to it, because only when his life ends will he leave the Kremlin and physically transfer power. I'm more than certain of that.
Trump, Diesel, and the Energy Dispute
Steven Bartlett: Regarding the current situation this week — with Trump, with Russia, and this deal that's been done. From my understanding, because there's an energy crisis globally, Trump has now done a deal with Russia for diesel. He then asked you not to attack any energy infrastructure in Russia. There's a video that I actually have here of him describing this, which a lot of people have now seen. I'll play it.
President Trump (video clip): "Well, I look at it differently. Zelenskyy could have settled this war many times. He chooses not to. Very difficult. It's a war that should have never been started. If I were president, if the election weren't rigged, I would have been president and that war would have never started. We said you could do whatever you want to Russia. Don't hit the refineries, because that's a world problem that's caused. And he wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranchers with diesel fuel, because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world. And we told them, 'Do whatever you want, but don't hit the diesel fuel because there's a big shortage.' And what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel fuel. Do what you want. Don't hit refineries. There's plenty of targets. And he went out and he hit. And he's not going to affect our farmers and he's not going to affect our ranchers and he's not going to affect the rest of the world. So we — he'd better damn well stop." And in that he says that he thinks Ukraine needs a new president.
President Zelenskyy: First of all, diesel exports have no impact. The volume of diesel exports is so negligible from Russia that it has zero impact on prices in the United States of America. That is totally false information. That's first.
Second, it makes no sense for us to strike Russia's energy infrastructure. We retaliate because they strike our energy infrastructure. We've spoken a lot about this. The Russians hit our energy grid. Our people live without power. We don't have oil, gas, diesel, and so on. That hurts them. What hurts us is electricity. They hit our electricity. We strike back at their diesel. They make money on diesel and spend it on weapons.
My offer — excuse me, but I don't need this. I've always told President Trump: broker an energy ceasefire, at least on energy. At least let's give people light. And good for the Russians — they'll sell their oil if they want to, if that's what you need. But President Trump can't reach an agreement with Putin on this. Putin refuses him an energy ceasefire. And so the president decided to pin this problem not on Putin but on me, explaining to his people that because of this, diesel prices in America are going up. That is completely untrue, and I don't understand. I have a good relationship with Trump, and I think it's wrong and unacceptable that he pins Russia's aggression and Russia's killings on me. He is shifting the context, and that's not fair. And that's why I honestly said that's unfair.
Ceasefire — he says it's not working out. They can't work it out. Well, if you can't work it out — but you need diesel, though. Again, I think this is just deflecting the focus away from what's happening in the Middle East. The entire volume is blocked over there. That's exactly where nothing is working out. Energy, the Strait of Hormuz is blocked. That's the root of the problem. But everything gets shifted onto us, and I'm made the target as the leader of our country.
So I said, "Okay, you can't force Putin to stop the war and make an energy truce. Give me air defence missiles. I won't fire at anyone. I'll protect our energy sector. So where am I being unfair? In what way?" I asked him, "Give us missiles." Not even for free — Europeans are funding this, funding all of it. There's an agreement, but they won't give them to us. They say we can't. They give and have given everything to the Middle East. It's just unfair. Patriot missiles, a diesel deal with Putin — I'm expected not to respond to an energy attack inside Ukraine, and diesel prices are rising in America because of it. It's unfair, and you need a different president. Well, diesel prices — I guarantee you 100% — diesel prices don't depend on the volume that Russia sells. They just don't.
Steven Bartlett: And about 76% of Ukrainians say they wouldn't want an election now, according to some recent surveys as well.
Is There a Realistic Path to Peace?
Steven Bartlett: My last question to you, Mr. President, is: is there a realistic path to the end of this war? And what does that look like?
President Zelenskyy: A realistic path. Trump can bring Putin to the negotiating table very easily, because he needs to. The way he talks about me, President Trump — he needs to adopt that kind of rhetoric about Putin.
Steven Bartlett: Why do you think he's not?
President Zelenskyy: I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. He's got sanctions on his desk. It wasn't him voting — Congress voted for strong sanctions. He can do it. I don't know why. Maybe they have a special relationship. Maybe something else. I can't tell you. I don't know everything. I can only guess — some economic deals and so on. I don't want to. Well, the midterms are coming up and I think he might be a little bit concerned about energy prices in America, more so than maybe Ukraine.
Well, look — diesel prices, I give you 100%: diesel prices don't depend on the volume Russia sells. They don't. Americans export energy resources. American companies export. It's interesting — why do American companies export energy? Well, because how can the president of the United States ban private sector exports? Well, I don't think he can. And why would he? It sells and money comes in.
You know, all secrets, all mysteries always come to light. It just takes time. Time is definitely on the side of those who are open and ready for honest dialogue and fight. Which means time will be on our side.
Steven Bartlett: What are your last words to our audience?
President Zelenskyy: I hope that it's not last words — last words for today. You know, half of your audience are in America. I wish America — which finds itself in a very tough situation, I believe, because the world has gone crazy, what's happening with the Russians, with Iran, the fact that people want blood, people want wars — I wish America would stay a great nation, be strong, be peaceful, have the chance — someone works, someone wants to be home with the kids, pray, have a family dinner. I wish America tranquillity, peace. And we're grateful for everything America has done for Ukraine. We won't forget this.
Steven Bartlett: President, thank you so much. I know you've had a really rough week and it's been very tough. I really appreciate you taking the time.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you so much. I was happy to see you and to have a dialogue. We had good dialogue. I think we spoke very well. Thank you so much.