Jessie Inchauspééé (Glucose Goddess) on pregnancy nutrition, glucose, sugar, and diet science
Biochemist and author Jessie Inchauspééé joins Steven Bartlett on The Diary of a CEO to discuss pregnancy nutrition, glucose science, and her new book.
Summary
Jessie Inchauspééé — known as the Glucose Goddess — returns to The Diary of a CEO for a wide-ranging conversation with host Steven Bartlett covering new research on glucose and mood, and the science behind her new book Nine Months That Nine Months That Nine Months That Count Forever: How Your Pregnancy Diet Shapes Your Baby's Future. She argues that pregnant women are being systematically failed by the food industry and by a medical system that rarely discusses critical nutrients like choline, omega-3s, and protein, despite decades of research showing their impact on fetal brain development. She also presents evidence that high sugar consumption during pregnancy epigenetically programs babies toward greater vulnerability to diabetes, obesity, and psychiatric disorders. The conversation covers her personal experience of a silent miscarriage in early 2024, how that shaped an anxious second pregnancy, and how motherhood has changed her. The episode also revisits glucose fundamentals — crashes, cravings, mood, muscle, and practical hacks — and extends them into the context of fertility and pregnancy. A notable live demonstration sees Steven and Jessie conduct an on-screen experiment comparing glucose responses while sitting versus standing after eating a muffin, with results shown in real time via a glucose monitor. The episode also addresses alcohol during pregnancy and breastfeeding, including a University of Melbourne study showing that even low-dose alcohol can cause structural facial and brain changes in babies that remain visible up to age 8.
Key Takeaways
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Glucose, mood, and the voodoo doll study
Jessie Inchauspééé: My work started in the glucose space — the blood sugar space. I was showing people how blood sugar impacts all of us on a daily basis. The spikes and dips after we eat lead to inflammation, faster aging, cravings, and fatigue. It's been the basis of my work because glucose matters for everybody. It is the core of a healthy body and mind. That's where I started because it's so important.
Steven Bartlett: We last spoke almost two years ago now. What have you learned in those two years that has evolved your thinking? If we reflect on our last conversations around glucose spikes and sugar and the health consequences and diets, is there anything new and interesting?
Jessie: Oh, absolutely. I think mostly the impact of glucose on mood and on relationships. There's this fascinating study that took married couples and gave the husbands and wives a little voodoo doll representing their spouse. The researchers told the participants to put a little pin in the voodoo doll every time their spouse annoyed them. At the end of two weeks, the researchers counted the number of pins in the voodoo dolls and also measured the participants' glucose levels. They found that the people who had the most glucose lows had put the most pins in the voodoo doll representing their spouse.
Scientists then found that when you have very unsteady glucose levels, it impacts a neurotransmitter in your brain called tyrosine that manages your mood. So it seems that with unsteady glucose levels, your mood is less stable, which could then correlate to being more annoyed at your spouse. Studies like this have really blown my mind.
Steven: What's going on when we go through a glucose crash?
Jessie: Glucose is your body's energy. Your brain is constantly monitoring how much glucose is in the bloodstream. Steady glucose is great. When your glucose levels crash, this signals biologically that you're out of fuel. It's a powerful signal to your body and brain: alert, we need food, we need more glucose. It creates all these downstream consequences on your mood. You become hangry. All you think about is food. You look for a banana, you look for a cookie. It can also activate the craving center in your brain. Science has shown that low glucose levels create a cascade of consequences on how we feel and what we seek.
Back in hunter-gatherer times, low glucose levels wouldn't arrive so quickly because we didn't have these big spikes that led to big drastic drops. People ate in a more balanced way with far less sugar. So when glucose became low, it was more gradual. Today, because we have access to all this sugar, we can spike our glucose very quickly and as a result it crashes very quickly. All of a sudden you go from feeling okay to your brain being in alert mode. We've dysregulated our glucose levels to the point where it's impacting us in a very unnatural way.
Steven: Is that in part because we modify our food? Even fruit — when I looked back through the history of fruit, apples and bananas looked extremely different before they were modified to be juicier and sweeter.
Jessie: Completely. It's like dogs. All the dog breeds today — from Chihuahuas to golden retrievers — come from wolves. Humans have been breeding wolves to create these different species. They all have that ancestor, the grey wolf. When it comes to fruit, it's the same thing. If you compare an ancestral banana or ancestral apple to a modern one, they look completely different. An ancestral banana: tiny, full of fiber, full of seeds, not very sweet. A modern banana: full of sugar, low in fiber, really easy to eat.
So that's the first thing people need to know about fruit. Fruit is not natural. Fruit is the product of human engineering. However, a piece of whole fruit also contains fiber and water. So even though it's been bred to have a lot of sugar, the fiber and water reduce how quickly the sugar arrives in our bloodstream, making it more or less okay. But the problem comes when we denature that piece of fruit — if we remove the fiber.
If we take an orange and make orange juice, what are we actually talking about? Oranges are not even a natural fruit — they were invented thousands of years ago by crossing other species. To make orange juice, you throw away the solid part, which is the fiber. So you're left with the sugar of a very sugary fruit, water, and no fiber. The result is a very unnatural amount of sugar in your bloodstream with nothing to slow the spike.
People often say, "Fruit has vitamins in it, so orange juice must be better for you than Coca-Cola." That's actually a myth. If you compare a glass of orange juice to a glass of Coca-Cola, it's the same amount of sugar — about 25 grams. The sugar in the Coke and the sugar in the orange juice are exactly the same: glucose and fructose molecules. Your body absorbs them in the exact same way. Your body does not distinguish between sugar from an orange and sugar from a sugar beet in a can of Coca-Cola.
I hope that orange juice disappears from school lunches and hospital meals. The World Health Organization recommends 25 grams of sugar per day or less. So with just one glass of orange juice in the morning that you think is good for you, you're already at the maximum limit. Most people drink this glass of orange juice thinking it's helping them. Most people with diabetes drink it thinking it's helping their condition. That's really where I want to act — I want to help people understand what they actually need to do to feel better so they don't fall victim to marketing.
Dopamine, doom scrolling, and the glucose-craving cycle
Steven: We talked about glucose crashes and what they cause in terms of behavior. I was wondering if they also cause other compulsive behaviors. Does it make me more likely to doom scroll if I've been eating lots of sugar?
Jessie: That's a great question. Why does sugar feel good? Because it releases dopamine in our brain. Dopamine is the pleasure molecule. If I were to drink that glass of orange juice, my brain would release so many dopamine molecules and I would feel this wave of pleasure. The problem is people confuse that with energy. It's not energy — it's dopamine. And dopamine is the same molecule that gets released when you're scrolling on Instagram. Every time you get something new and interesting, there's a dopamine signal. If you're constantly triggering dopamine in your brain, you're going to constantly crash — dopamine spikes, dopamine crashes — and become more and more addicted to it.
I don't know of studies showing a direct link between glucose spikes and doom scrolling specifically. But if you look at just the biology, they're triggering the same center in your brain. So I can imagine that if you're on a dopamine addiction cycle, both an orange juice and doom scrolling can go hand in hand.
Steven: I was just looking at some research and it says you're significantly more likely to doom scroll during a glucose crash. It explains that's because of something called the energy crisis in the prefrontal cortex — the part of the brain responsible for willpower and decision-making. When glucose drops, this area is first to dim the lights to save energy for vital functions. The result is you lose your executive function, making it nearly impossible to resist the hit of dopamine that social media provides. The second reason is the dopamine trap, and the third is that emotional regulation goes out the window. I notice in myself that when I'm on a higher glucose diet, I'm more likely to get involved in compulsive behaviors that I otherwise don't like.
Jessie: You have less willpower, less control. You feel more addicted.
And the first thing people notice when they're on a glucose roller coaster is that they feel addicted to sugar. It's no longer a choice to go after that cookie — it feels compulsive. That glucose crash is triggering a biological mechanism that is nearly impossible to override. So when you tell somebody just eat less sugar, that's not useful. You can't just eat less sugar. You have to fix the underlying cause, which is usually the glucose crash. You can't override that feeling of craving that comes from deep inside your brain. You need to fix the spike, reduce the spike, and then naturally the cravings also reduce.
There's also this theory called the protein leverage hypothesis. It says that your body will keep you hungry and keep you seeking food until you've given it enough protein. So if in the morning you have oats and toast and jam — very little protein — your body is going to be like, we didn't get any protein, we need more. So you stay hungry. At 10 a.m. you're hungry again. If you have a cookie, again no protein. Your body will keep you hungry. If all of a sudden you have 40 grams of protein, that craving dissipates and the feeling of seeking food calms down because your body got what it actually needed.
Deceptive food marketing and label reading
Steven: People send you lots of messages. You have an enormous online following. What would be the essence of what people are saying to you?
Jessie: They're asking me about specific foods. "Are lentils okay? Can I eat three eggs a day? What kind of vinegar should I use?" Often it's people trying to navigate the marketing messages they're seeing on food packaging. "This can of tea says zero grams of sugar — is it good for me?" They're trying to decode what these food products actually contain and whether they're actually good for them.
Steven: Is there any standout marketing message that's particularly deceptive?
Jessie: "No added sugars" — that is so deceptive. Because a glass of orange juice has no added sugars in it because the sugar was there at the beginning. It came from the original ingredient. So on a can of orange juice, you can say "no added sugar" even though it contains 25 grams of sugar — the maximum the WHO recommends for your entire daily intake. Another one would be something that says "gluten-free" or "vegan." It's not because it's gluten-free or vegan that it's good for you. Food manufacturers do everything they can to make you buy their products.
Fertility, sperm quality, and preparing for pregnancy
Steven: I'm in the season of life where I'm thinking a lot about fertility — my own fertility, my fiancée's fertility, and how diet impacts that. What do we need to know if we're trying to conceive?
Jessie: Both the male and the female need to be thinking about fertility. Nutrition plays a big role in the quality of sperm, for example. A good idea would be to reduce alcohol before you want to have a child if you're the man, exercise more, eat better so that your sperm are high quality. Sperm turnover is about three months. So if you do a three-month intense "my sperm are getting in shape" kind of situation, that's a good idea.
For women it's different. Our eggs are present from before we're born, but the quality of our diet and our nutrient reserves is going to impact our ability to have kids and also what our baby gets in the first trimester of pregnancy.
The book: Nine Months That Nine Months That Nine Months That Count Forever
Steven: You've just given birth — eight months ago. And I guess that's linked to why you've written this new book. You could have written about anything. Why of all subjects was this the one that meant the most to you?
Jessie: Because there is such a big gap between what science knows and what parents are told. It felt like there was a canyon between information in the studies — which has been there for decades — and what I as a pregnant woman went through and what advice I was given. Even though I was pregnant and tired, I felt I needed to write this book because people need to know the power that they have.
Today, science knows that you're not just an oven when you're pregnant. There's an American expression — "you have a bun in the oven." And I feel like this is where all of our problems started, because it implies so many misleading things. It implies that when you're pregnant, you are an oven — you're just there to provide heat and time. People say, "Just relax, let nature do its thing." It implies that you're passive, that you have no agency, no power. You're just a vessel of heat and time.
The second problem is that it implies that your baby, the moment the sperm meets the egg, is set in stone. Like a brownie you put in the oven — the oven isn't going to change the brownie into banana bread. Well, actually it's very different with pregnancy. Your baby is not set in stone at conception. What happens during the nine months is co-creating your baby's plan. Depending on what you eat, a different baby will come out. We've been telling pregnant moms they have no agency, they should just relax and let nature do its thing. That's why I wrote this book.
Steven: Where are pregnant women being let down? Is there not enough information? Is the research lacking? Is it bad advice on the internet?
Jessie: This is the fault of our food system. This is the fault of society. This is the fault of the food industry and the marketing messages. In developed countries, we are being fed processed, unhealthy foods that are hurting us — whether we get diabetes or heart disease, there's a link to food. And today, even pregnant moms are being let down by the food system and are eating a diet that's not giving them the nutrients their baby needs, often without knowing it.
The moment I became pregnant the first time, I started researching. I went to Google Scholar and opened about a thousand tabs. I looked at the big review studies, the meta-analyses of how nutrition during pregnancy impacts a baby's development. I read probably 2,000 scientific papers. Out of that, I saw four big themes — four nutrients that most moms are not getting enough of, or too much of. I wanted to create a guide to help parents navigate that food system and see easy things they can do to help their baby's development.
While your baby's DNA is set the moment the sperm meets the egg, with your diet during pregnancy, you're programming that DNA. Epigenetics are like little dimmer switches that sit on your DNA and say "activate this gene" or "silence this gene." During pregnancy, you're putting these little switches on your baby's DNA, and this is going to have an impact on your baby's development and on his future risk of disease.
A simple example: if you have very high glucose levels during pregnancy, scientists have found that your baby's DNA will have epigenetic switches programming him toward a higher vulnerability to develop diabetes himself in his lifetime. If you have high glucose levels, your baby will be programmed to be more likely to then have high glucose levels himself throughout his life — as a kid, a teenager, and an adult. And depending on your diet, you can program your kids differently. But nobody tells moms about this.
The placenta, fetal development, and trimesters
Steven: What do I need to know to really understand the basics of what's going on? What time frame matters? What happens when?
Jessie: Females have a uterus — an organ where the baby develops. When conception happens, the sperm meets the egg and that little packet of cells implants in one of the walls of the uterus and starts growing. Pregnancy is divided into three trimesters — about nine months. Months one to three is the first trimester, four through six is the second, seven through nine is the third. What we're going to talk about is nutrition and how your baby gets the building blocks he needs to develop in your womb. Your baby needs to grow from a single cell to 40 trillion cells by the time he's born — from nothing to three or four kilos. That has to come from somewhere. All those building blocks are coming from you, from what you're eating. What you eat becomes your baby.
In the first trimester, your baby is getting food from uterine secretions. Then from the second trimester onwards, something incredible happens — you create another organ inside your uterus called the placenta. The placenta's job is to bring your baby's bloodstream and your bloodstream in very close contact. All of a sudden, symbiosis is established and your bloodstreams exchange nutrients and waste. Your baby gets all his nutrition directly from your bloodstream.
And here's a main myth: people believe that your baby will just get what he needs from you during pregnancy. Moms are told, "Don't worry, your baby will get what he needs from you." This is a lie. Depending on what you eat, your baby will have different access to important nutrients. Your baby doesn't get what he needs — he gets what's there and what you give him.
Choline: the nutrient 90% of mothers are missing
Jessie: One of the nutrients that is really important is called choline. It's in the egg yolk. Choline is super important — it forms your baby's brain in the womb. Your baby's brain has cells called neurons forming that process information, and choline is important to creating those neurons. It creates the parts of your baby's brain that have to do with memory, learning, and attention. An egg contains about 125 milligrams of choline, and it's an incredible substance.
If you don't eat enough choline, your baby's brain is not going to get enough, and this can have an impact on your child's development. The American Academy of Pediatrics says failure to provide choline during this time can result in lifelong brain deficits in the baby. Today, 90% of moms are not getting enough choline during pregnancy.
Steven: Why?
Jessie: Because nobody is telling them about it. And because today we don't eat very nutritious foods that contain a lot of choline. They're present in eggs — four eggs a day gives you all the choline you need. Choline is also present in organ meats like liver, but nobody eats liver anymore. Most of the foods we eat today — cupcakes, dried fruits, burgers, chips — don't contain a lot of choline.
Scientists do animal studies where they deprive moms of choline and look at the impact on the brain. They see that brain development in the baby stops earlier than it should and those babies are born with fewer neurons. The amount of choline in your diet during pregnancy is going to impact your child's brain development. And nobody's telling moms about this.
Steven: How many eggs a day do I need to eat while pregnant to get enough choline?
Jessie: Four is the golden number. Every day during pregnancy I ate four eggs — that's about 28 eggs per week. That gets you all the choline your baby needs, which is about 450 milligrams per day. And this is not very expensive. 28 eggs is about $7. So for $1 a day, you're getting all the choline your baby needs to form his brain.
Steven: Mothers are often told to avoid liver while pregnant. Why is that? And are you saying that's not correct advice?
Jessie: Liver contains quite high levels of vitamin A, and there are some older studies that show liver and high vitamin A can cause issues. That's why liver is not usually recommended during pregnancy. I would say check with your doctor — different countries have different thresholds. Honestly I don't like liver, so I prefer eggs, but liver is super high in choline.
You can also take choline supplements. Scientists at Cornell gave one group of moms the bare minimum recommended amount — 450 milligrams in supplements — and another group double that amount. Then they brought the kids in during their first year for tests. The main test involves placing the baby on his mom's lap in front of a computer screen, flashing images, and measuring how quickly the baby reacts — how quickly he moves his eyes. This test is correlated to adult IQ. The faster a baby reacts to images in the first year, the higher his adult IQ. They found that babies born to the high-choline moms had 10% faster reaction time.
Breastfeeding, formula, and epigenetic programming
Steven: People talk a lot about breastfeeding — whether it's good, bad, indifferent, whether you can breastfeed too much. There are also lots of practicalities that make breastfeeding quite difficult for many mothers. What does the research say?
Jessie: The main difference between breast milk and formula is that breast milk is alive. It's alive with information — with little molecules that are going to continue that DNA programming. Formula is inert. It's not alive. It's not doing that programming. Yes, breastfeeding has advantages for the mom and for the baby, but formula is nutritionally complete and very useful for many moms who are not able or don't want to breastfeed.
If you're using formula, you have to check because not all formulas have choline in them. Check the ingredients for choline. Also check for omega-3s. Look for choline and omega-3s in your formula to make sure your baby is getting what he needs.
Steven: I was reading about a study in the Pediatric Research Journal — a 2013 Dutch study of 120 children that found less breastfeeding was linked to a silencing of the gene for leptin, the hormone that signals fullness.
Jessie: That's a good example of epigenetic programming. We have a gene that codes for leptin, which is a protein. Leptin is one of the molecules that makes you feel full. You and I both have this leptin gene, but depending on our epigenetic programming, you might be producing more of it and I might be producing less. So for the same meal, you might feel more full than I do. In this study, they saw that if you're not breastfed very long, your leptin gene is deactivated. You feel less full after eating. These are small associations, but they suggest that breastfeeding could help your baby be more satiated after eating.
Sugar during pregnancy and the wartime ration study
Steven: What about sugar during pregnancy?
Jessie: Sugar is fascinating. When you eat sugar, your baby is also receiving it because the placenta lets sugar through. And your baby needs no sugar during pregnancy. He needs a little bit of glucose, which is different. But sugar — as in the very sweet molecule of fructose that is in chocolate, in cupcakes, in dried fruit — your baby needs none of it.
The most interesting study on sugar in pregnancy came from the UK. From 1940 to 1953, there was a government-mandated sugar ration — for 13 years, the government controlled how much sugar people had access to during the war. Everybody got 10 sugar cubes per day, down from what people usually ate, which was about 20 sugar cubes per day. So everybody, including pregnant moms, had a capped amount of sugar for 13 years. At the end of the ration, everybody went back to eating more sugar.
Scientists in the early 2000s thought: this means we have two groups of pregnant moms — those during the ration and those right after — who had babies developing in their womb with either around 40 grams or 80 grams of sugar per day. Can this small difference make an impact on the baby's long-term health? They called up 60,000 people born either just before or just after the ration ended and asked about their health — do you have diabetes, heart disease, what's your weight? They found that babies who were in the mother's womb during the sugar ration had a 15% lower likelihood of having developed type 2 diabetes in their lifetime.
This means the amount of sugar during pregnancy can be slightly increasing or decreasing your baby's vulnerability to getting type 2 diabetes later in life. Today, scientists look at the epigenetics of babies born to moms with very high glucose levels and see that the genes related to diabetes are activated. We now have a full picture: epigenetics, long-term study data — and we see that the amount of sugar eaten during pregnancy is subtly programming our baby.
When I was 25, I was on the cusp of pre-diabetes. I had very high glucose levels — a vulnerability to diabetes. As I was reading the studies, I thought, "Maybe this has something to do with what my mother was eating when she was pregnant with me." So I called my mom. She said, "Oh, it was the '90s. I ate very little protein, very low fat. And in the morning, every morning, I had a big glass of orange juice and Special K cereal with about a half a cup of table sugar on top." I will never know for certain, but I wonder if my vulnerability to diabetes had some roots in the womb.
Steven: And the science suggests it does have a correlation.
Jessie: Absolutely. Today, the WHO recommends 25 grams of sugar per day, but most moms are eating 80 grams per day — usually more than when they're not pregnant — because of the collective myth that you should eat for two, that pregnancy means you're going to gain weight anyway so eat as much sugar as you want. We're really failing moms because we're not telling them about the incredible opportunity they have to help their baby be less vulnerable to diabetes, just by being a bit mindful of how much sugar they eat.
Steven: It's not just diabetes though, is it?
I was looking at some studies. A Danish study in the JAMA Network found that children born to mothers with diabetes had a 15% higher risk of psychiatric disorders, with schizophrenia risk being 55% higher, intellectual disability 29% higher, and connections to autism and ADHD. A 2025 review of 200 studies covering 56 million mother-baby pairs found a 25% higher risk of autism when mothers had diabetes during pregnancy. It's important to note these studies show correlation, not causation, and a 25% increase in absolute terms only raises prevalence from one in 100 to around 1.25 in 100 children.
Jessie: There is some nuance, but that association holds very strongly across 56 million mother-baby pairs. When a mom has diabetes during pregnancy, her baby has a higher risk of psychiatric disorders. The main theory involves the baby's brain forming in the womb. You have about a hundred billion neurons in your brain — the exact same neurons you had the day you were born. Neurons never get replaced. Which means your neurons are formed during pregnancy.
You have these neurons forming 250,000 per minute. Next to the neurons, there's another type of cell called the microglia. It looks like a starfish and is patrolling the baby's brain. Its job is to make sure neurons are forming properly. What microglia do — they're cells from the immune system — is look out for any neurons being damaged or not formed properly. As soon as they find a suboptimal neuron, they go over to it, eat it, and destroy it. They're pruning the brain.
Now, if the mother has high inflammation levels during pregnancy — caused by high glucose levels, infection, or chemicals — high inflammation seems to make these microglia overactive. They become dysregulated and start eating and destroying neurons that don't need to be destroyed — healthy neurons. As a result, the brain forms in a slightly suboptimal fashion. Scientists believe this is the leading theory behind the association between gestational diabetes and a higher risk of psychiatric disorders.
This tells us that when we're pregnant, we're influencing the amount of inflammation in our baby's body. If women can have power over their inflammation levels — for example, by reducing glucose spikes — they could also give their baby a benefit in brain formation.
Continuous glucose monitoring in pregnancy
Steven: Do you think it's useful for women during pregnancy to wear continuous glucose monitors?
Jessie: I did — the whole time. Is it useful? Depends on what you want to do. I think it's really interesting. It helped me a lot. Maybe just for two weeks could be worthwhile so you can see what's going on and learn about your glucose spikes.
One of the issues is that your glucose levels are usually tested in the third trimester with the diabetes test, but by that time you've already been going along for six months. I think we should be testing glucose levels much earlier — in the first trimester — because your glucose levels then can actually predict very well whether you're going to get gestational diabetes. I think we should put a glucose monitor on all pregnant moms in the first trimester, or even pre-pregnancy, to help them understand their spikes and show them the easy tools and habits that can reduce them.
Steven: I was reading about a study from Diabetes Care that put continuous glucose monitors on 700 women and found that first-trimester data could accurately predict who would develop gestational diabetes at 24 to 28 weeks.
Jessie: A lot of people used to think gestational diabetes was kind of random — "Oh, you get it, but we don't know why." Now we have evidence suggesting it's actually correlated to your glucose levels in the first trimester. In the first trimester, your glucose levels are pretty much the same as when you're not pregnant. As pregnancy progresses, hormones come into play — glucose spikes get bigger and longer, fasting glucose levels become lower. But that first trimester, your glucose spikes are similar to pre-pregnancy. This means your non-pregnant glucose levels can predict whether or not you're going to get gestational diabetes.
Which means gestational diabetes is not random. It has roots in what was happening before pregnancy. If you had high glucose levels before pregnancy, you're more likely to get gestational diabetes. Gestational diabetes could actually just be a symptom of having had high glucose levels before pregnancy but not knowing about it.
Individual glucose variation and muscle mass
Steven: When we say high glucose levels, is that a very individual thing?
Jessie: No, it's not an individual thing. We have very clear cut-offs. If you're not pregnant, 100 milligrams per deciliter is the cut-off between healthy and pre-diabetes — that's your fasting glucose level first thing in the morning. If you're pregnant, that changes. Anything above 92 milligrams per deciliter is considered gestational diabetes. We have very specific ranges: normal, too high, much too high.
Steven: But if we both had a teaspoon of this honey, our responses would be completely different, right?
Jessie: The glucose spike we each experience is going to be different for a bunch of reasons — our microbiome, our genetics, how much muscle mass we have, how hydrated, stressed, or tired we are. Maybe you'll get a spike of 30 milligrams and maybe I'll get 45 because I'm tired. It doesn't mean honey is necessarily better for you than for me. It just means my body today is more or less good at managing this influx of glucose.
And it means something very important: if we both used a glucose hack — for example, if we both had a chicken breast before the honey — both of us would have a smaller spike from the same honey. Glucose hacks work in everyone. The exact absolute values after eating something can vary, but one thing true for everybody is your fasting glucose — glucose before you eat anything. That's something we can compare directly.
Steven: So if I put on more muscle, I'll tolerate glucose better?
Jessie: Yes, because your muscles are an amazing sink where your body soaks up glucose from your bloodstream. That's why even during pregnancy, having high muscle mass is protective against gestational diabetes. Women with higher muscle mass are less likely to develop it.
Let me give you an example. We eat this honey. It goes from our mouth to our stomach to our intestine and through the intestinal wall into our bloodstream — all these glucose molecules arriving at once. Two options: either we stay still and glucose rises, big spike, then crash. Or we go for a walk right after eating. We're walking, our muscles are contracting, they're looking for energy, the first place they look is the bloodstream. Which is why if you move after you eat, you'll get a smaller glucose spike — some of that glucose is being used by your muscles.
Steven: I've heard you tell people they should do something with their calves.
Jessie: Calf raises. Put your feet on the ground and just go up onto the ends of your feet and back down. There's a muscle in your calf called the soleus muscle. As you do this, it's very good at soaking up glucose from your bloodstream. Easy hack you can do after eating something sweet — just do some calf raises at your desk. Nobody can notice. Five minutes, and that's going to help reduce the glucose spike.
Steven: I mean, five minutes — I probably can do five minutes.
Jessie: In studies they sometimes do hours of this, but even just one minute is better than nothing.
Steven: This is probably why a lot of cultures go for a walk after dinner.
Jessie: Completely. And a lot of the glucose hacks actually mirror many traditions. For example, the glucose hack of having your vegetables at the beginning of your meal is incredibly powerful — pregnancy or not — because vegetables contain fiber. When you have them at the beginning of your meal, they create a protective mesh in your intestine that slows down the glucose molecules from carbs, making them arrive more slowly into your bloodstream, meaning a smaller spike. Eating veggies at the beginning of a meal — in France we call that crudités, which means raw veggies at the beginning of your meal.
Steven: What other simple exercises do you recommend if I've just eaten something high in glucose?
Jessie: The best thing to do is to move your body. Get up, find a spot in your apartment that needs tidying. Find some laundry to do and do that within 90 minutes after eating. Your muscles are your best ally in reducing your glucose spikes after eating.
Steven: How long do I have to get that glucose into my muscles?
Jessie: About 90 minutes — an hour and a half. That's when the spike is usually going to be at its maximum.
Steven: So squats?
Jessie: Squats are a great tool. There are studies showing that if you do five or ten squats every five minutes, that's a very powerful way to get your glucose spike down. Your glutes are looking for energy and the first place they look is in your blood — they're looking for glucose, because that's the energy your muscles use.
Steven: Do you use a standing desk?
Jessie: I have a desk at home that moves up and down. But sometimes if I'm tired, I'm more tired with the standing desk. I have to have a bit of energy left over.
Steven: I oscillate between standing and sitting. Especially in the morning, I find it really good.
Jessie: You just gave me an idea for a glucose test. I should do the same muffin — afterwards standing at the desk for 30 minutes, or sitting at the desk for 30 minutes. That's a great test.
Steven: We need to put some glucose monitors on first. But yes, we should do it. I will eat a muffin first thing in the morning, stand for 30 minutes, then the next day eat a muffin first thing in the morning and sit for 30 minutes, and I'll send you the spike.
Jessie: And either we'll see that the spikes are very similar — meaning standing doesn't use much more muscle energy than sitting — or we'll see that standing is using up some of the glucose from my bloodstream, and therefore the spike is smaller after the muffin.
Now, what you see on screen if you're watching are the results of Jesse standing after having a muffin, and these results are Jesse sitting after having a muffin.
Exercise during pregnancy and the treadmill rat study
Steven: Mothers are given conflicting advice about exercise during pregnancy. Some say it's not good, some say it's great. What's your position from all the research you've done?
Jessie: Exercise is incredibly good for your baby's development. There's one study done in animals — we can't do many studies in humans during pregnancy for obvious ethical reasons — that I think is my favorite study in the book. Scientists took two groups of pregnant rats and gave them the exact same housing conditions, diet, lighting, everything. The only difference was that one group also had tiny little treadmills they had to walk on for 30 minutes a day during pregnancy. Same exact conditions, one difference: one group of pregnant rats moving 30 minutes a day.
Then they waited for the babies to be born and put the babies in mazes to measure how quickly they solved them, and also measured the babies' anxiety levels. They found that the babies born to the moms who were exercising solved the maze twice as fast and had fewer anxiety symptoms.
The main theory is that when we exercise, a molecule called BDNF is produced in our brain. It helps neuroplasticity — it helps neurons create new connections. We know in humans that one reason exercise is good for the brain is because it increases BDNF. In these pregnant rats, they found not only were the moms' BDNF levels higher, but the babies' BDNF levels inside the wombs were also higher. They believe that is why they saw the impact on the baby's brain development after birth.
What happens in the womb is really setting up a strong foundation for your baby's brain — laying out the basic architecture. Which is why it's so important to do these simple hacks to give your baby's brain the optimal nutrients to form properly.
The soil metaphor: epigenetics visualized
Steven: There are two plant pots here. What's the metaphor?
Jessie: Both of these plants come from identical seeds. The only difference is what they were planted in. One was planted in basically little rocks and gravel with a tiny bit of soil. The other was planted in rich fertilized soil. We intuitively understand that when we're planting a seed, the soil matters. The same seed is not going to lead to the same tree depending on where we plant it.
For pregnancy, we've lost this intuition. Your baby is a seed. You as the mother — your body — are the soil. And the soil is going to co-create your baby's plan. When you're pregnant, your baby has his DNA plan, but depending on the nutrients you provide, he's going to grow into a different tree. Either a super optimal tree that had all the nutrients he needed, or he's going to have to adapt to what's available and grow into a slightly different tree.
The main difference is that humans are not plants. Humans are very resilient. Your baby will probably be okay. Even if 90% of you don't have enough choline, even if 75% don't have enough omega-3s, even if 70% don't have enough protein, and even if most of you are eating more than the recommended amount of sugar — your baby will probably be fine. But he will be adapting to a slightly sub-optimal nutrient environment. You're co-creating the plan of your baby with your diet during pregnancy, shaping him, and he's adapting and calibrating to what you're giving him.
Alcohol and breastfeeding
Steven: What about alcohol?
Jessie: Not a good idea. Your bloodstream and your baby's bloodstream are basically connected. When you drink alcohol during pregnancy, your blood alcohol level rises and your baby's blood alcohol level in your uterus also rises. There's no filter protecting your baby from alcohol. When you have a glass of wine, your baby's also having a glass of wine in the womb. We know alcohol is not good for our brains, and this goes for babies too. You wouldn't put red wine in your baby's bottle after birth — but that's kind of what's happening when you're drinking alcohol while pregnant.
There's been a lot online about alcohol during pregnancy being fine in small quantities. But when you understand how alcohol is toxic to the brain biologically, it makes no sense that a little bit is okay. It's best if you can to avoid alcohol entirely.
Steven: So complete abstinence. There was actually a study that came out in February last year from the University of Melbourne, where they used high-resolution 3D imaging to reveal that even low doses of alcohol cause consistent changes in the shape of the eyes and nose at 12 months, persisting up to age 8, and weaker connections in the right anterior cingulate part of the brain — the region critical for emotional regulation and impulse control — even if the mother drank only occasionally. I think for a long time we've thought heavy consumption was the only real problem.
Jessie: It kind of goes for all adults too, right? We thought for a long time that one glass of wine per day was good for the heart. Now we understand the ideal amount of alcohol is zero — there's no benefit. Is one glass of wine during pregnancy going to indelibly impact your baby's brain? Probably not. But if you can avoid it, this is the best time to avoid it entirely.
Steven: What about when you're breastfeeding?
Jessie: You have much more leeway then because the amount of alcohol in your breast milk mirrors the amount of alcohol in your bloodstream. If you have a glass of wine, two and a half to three hours later you have pretty much no more alcohol in your bloodstream, which means your breast milk is also pretty much devoid of alcohol. If you time it right, you'll be able to have a glass of wine without it going into your breast milk. But it's all about timing.
Caffeine, fermented foods, bread, and glucose during pregnancy
Steven: Caffeine?
Jessie: The recommendation is to stay under two cups of coffee per day during pregnancy. It's not a neurotoxin like alcohol, but caffeine does go to your baby's bloodstream. Some studies show that babies are more active in the womb after the mother drinks caffeine and it has no benefit. I reduced my caffeine intake a little bit. Instead of having two flat whites, I had maybe half a flat white or a decaf when I could. But some days I really wanted a coffee, so I had a coffee.
Steven: Have there ever been studies on caffeine and pregnancy?
Jessie: We can't do studies on caffeine in pregnancy in humans — it's unethical to test anything in pregnant moms. We have associations, and they don't show much difference. We don't have studies showing caffeine intake in moms leads to bad outcomes in kids. It seems pretty neutral at low doses. If you have really high doses of caffeine, there is an associative impact on the baby's temperament. But for one or two cups a day, no impact is found. Animal studies at low doses also show no issue. Very high doses, we start to see changes in the baby's behavior.
Steven: In certain animal studies, they show caffeine during pregnancy leads to smaller offspring, altered heart development, and delayed brain growth. But you explain that we don't have direct clinical trial data on the long-term impact of caffeine during human pregnancy.
Jessie: And those animal studies use very high doses of caffeine.
Steven: The World Health Organization recommends that women who consume more than 300 milligrams of coffee a day — roughly three cups — reduce their daily intake during pregnancy.
Jessie: Probably one cup a day is not harming your baby.
Steven: Fermented foods and the gut?
Jessie: This is very early research, but it suggests that potentially if a mother has fermented foods during pregnancy, it's also seeding her baby's gut microbiome. Very early stuff. But if you can include some kefir or sauerkraut during pregnancy, it's helpful.
Steven: What about bread? In terms of recommendations on the type of bread one should be eating?
Jessie: Bread is a carb that contains mostly glucose. In the third trimester of pregnancy, your baby actually needs more glucose because he's developing and needs energy. Your baby needs about 70 grams of glucose per day at the very end of pregnancy. So as a pregnant mom, you should be eating 70 grams more glucose than usual at the end of pregnancy. For the first and second trimesters, you don't need much more. You could get that via bread or via rice — 70 grams of glucose is about three slices of bread or a cup and a half of rice.
In terms of the type of bread, it's always better for your glucose levels to have bread full of seeds. But to be honest, there's not a huge difference between sprouted grain bread and white bread — it's all just glucose.
Steven: There's a risk that mothers might get a little scared of having sugary foods during pregnancy, but you've just said the baby does need glucose.
Jessie: There's a difference. Glucose is present in carbs and starches — bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, oats. Starches contain glucose. But starches are different from sugars. Sugars are the sweet foods that contain glucose but also another molecule that makes them sweet called fructose. Your baby needs no fructose during pregnancy, ever. Your baby does not need any sugar from dessert, from chocolate, from muffins, from cupcakes. But your baby does need glucose, which is healthier to get from starches like bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes.
Steven: What about the ketogenic diet while pregnant?
Jessie: I don't think there's enough evidence to tell us whether it's okay or not. It's very early and quite rare. And since your baby does need glucose during pregnancy, it's just easier to eat glucose and starches. Whole fruit is also a good way of getting the glucose you need — thanks to the fiber and water, the amount of fructose in fruit doesn't lead to such a big fructose spike.
Steven: There's a study from the G1D Foundation that basically says for 99% of pregnancies, a strict ketogenic diet is considered dangerous, and doctors instead recommend a low glycemic index diet.
Jessie: Low glycemic means a diet with smaller glucose spikes. This is really helpful for people with gestational diabetes — it helps them manage their spikes and reduce the need for medication. But also for any pregnant mom, it's important to think about your glucose spikes, because when you have a glucose spike, your baby has one too. Glucose spikes are not good news. It's better to give your baby slow rolling hills of glucose, not these big spikes that can lead to more inflammation — and as we talked about, more inflammation can impact the baby's brain development.
Supplements: omega-3s, iron, folate, and DHA
Steven: Do you recommend that mothers take certain supplements? Did you take supplements throughout your pregnancy?
Jessie: I took omega-3s. The reason is that omega-3s also form the baby's brain and they come from algae in the ocean and fish. One omega-3 in particular called DHA helps your baby's neurons connect with each other. This is really important. In animal studies, when scientists restrict how much DHA a mother has access to, they see measurable impact on the baby's brain — brains that are less efficient, babies that take much longer to find the exit of mazes.
The easiest way to get enough DHA is to eat fish or sardines. The recommendation is fatty fish twice a week — I would say three times a week if you can. Three cans of sardines covers your three servings of fish per week and gives you all the omega-3s your baby needs. For about $6–7 per week for sardines and another $7 for eggs, you're getting all the choline and all the omega-3s your baby needs.
I also supplemented with two grams of DHA per day, because I think the fatty fish recommendation is lacking. Most moms don't have enough omega-3s in their body.
Steven: What else was in your supplement stack?
Jessie: In the third trimester, I took iron because my levels were very low — this often happens during pregnancy even if you're eating a lot of meat, because your baby pulls a lot of iron from you. And then I had a normal prenatal supplement, but I made sure it had choline in it. And I made sure it had a type of folic acid called methylated folate, which is better absorbed. Folate is very important to prevent miscarriage.
Jessie's silent miscarriage
Steven: You talked about your first pregnancy and you said we'd come back to it. You went through a miscarriage.
Jessie: Yes. I got pregnant the first time and thought everything would be totally fine, but I found out at the three-month scan that the embryo had stopped developing. I had what's called a silent miscarriage. Usually when you miscarry, you start to lose blood, you have cramps — you know something's wrong. I had a silent miscarriage, which is more rare. The embryo was dead. My body did not expel it. So I found out I'd lost the pregnancy at the scan at the doctor's office. I had been walking around for a month with an embryo that had stopped developing and had no idea. I thought I was still pregnant.
Steven: What is that like for someone who has never experienced such news? What range of emotions and thoughts occur?
Jessie: For me it was so devastating. So, so difficult. I didn't want to believe it. I was screaming. I remember falling to the floor in my living room and saying to whatever god or the universe that I wanted my baby back. I was not okay. It was very, very difficult. I felt a lot of anger. I felt a lot of despair. I felt a sense of injustice — like why me? I felt like I had done everything right. I was eating the choline, I was taking the right supplements. I wasn't doing anything harmful and I still had a miscarriage. I didn't have it in my consciousness that it could happen to me. It was probably one of the most difficult experiences in my life.
Steven: Is this more common than people realize?
Jessie: One in five pregnancies ends in miscarriage.
Steven: That's really high. Way higher than I thought.
Jessie: I felt so isolated. I didn't feel like people around me knew how to handle it — it's kind of taboo. And then when I miscarried, I started talking to people about it and found out that so many people around me had gone through it but had never told me.
When was your first pregnancy? I got pregnant in February 2024, so the miscarriage was in spring 2024. Then I got pregnant again in August 2024 and my son was born in May 2025. I got pregnant quite quickly afterwards. But it was difficult because I was still carrying the grief of the miscarriage. I had a very anxious pregnancy. I was very anxious the whole time that something bad would happen again. It was very difficult.
That's why people usually wait until the third-month mark to tell their friends and family that they're pregnant. I had no conception of that, so the moment I got that first positive test, I told everybody. It made it quite complicated to have to announce the miscarriage to about 50 people. But at the same time, I felt less alone than I would have felt if nobody had known I was pregnant in the first place.
Steven: Is there anything you wish you knew earlier in life that you didn't hear?
Jessie: I wish my mom had told me about her miscarriages. She hadn't. Until I miscarried. I wish my grandmother had told me. I wish people had told me more about their experiences, because then I would have understood it happens to a lot of people. Maybe I would have been more prepared and it would have made the experience a little bit less painful. Instead of feeling so isolated. Or at least maybe I would have been more cautious — because one of the feelings was "why did this happen to me?"
And then I realized it happens to many people and it's not necessarily anything you've done. It can be just a chromosomal abnormality and the embryo just can't develop anymore. It can be something we don't yet understand.
Steven: It's hard, isn't it? Getting pregnant.
Jessie: Your whole life you're told to do all these things to not get pregnant because it might happen without you expecting it. And then when you try to get pregnant, you realize — oh, it's not at all as easy as I thought. I was lucky — I got pregnant after two or three cycles both times, which is very quick. But some of my friends, it's taken them years to conceive.
How motherhood has changed her
Steven: How has becoming a mother changed you?
Jessie: It's made me happier. My baseline happiness is higher. I used to have this kind of 10% melancholy — maybe my life could be better if I did this or that, questioning how to find happiness. That's gone. With my son, that has been filled. I didn't expect it to be filled, so that's been amazing.
And it's made me very efficient. Now when I have 42 minutes, I use every one of those 42 minutes. I cannot imagine how much time I used to have. What did I used to do? I thought I was busy. Now I'm really busy. It's so funny to look back at my life before and realize I was completely wrong. I thought I was busy and I thought I was tired. I wasn't. Now I am.
Can adults reverse epigenetic programming from the womb?
Steven: If your parents had a suboptimal lifestyle and diet, is there something I can do now as an adult to reverse that?
Jessie: Totally. First of all, my mom was eating a lot of sugar, but it wasn't her fault. Culture around her was telling her fat is bad, eat low-fat foods. She was just a product of her time — like we all are. Our diet today is just a function of what food marketing is going on. Pregnancy has an outsized effect on our vulnerability to disease, but it's not everything. I told you that at 25 I was on the cusp of pre-diabetes. Well, I implemented the glucose hacks, I found all the science, and I never got pre-diabetes.
It's like the difference between two friends of mine — Gabriel and Nicholas. They both work out the same and eat the same. One builds muscle really easily, the other doesn't. However, it doesn't mean they both can't build muscle. It might just be a little bit more difficult for one than the other. Same thing with diabetes. One person may get diabetes with the same diet as another who doesn't. But when you change your diet, you can change the course of your life. You might be more or less vulnerable, but we always have agency. We always have the power, no matter our age, to take back control.
Cravings: addiction vs. enjoyment, and the psychology of sugar
Steven: Cravings are where it all begins. You can know everything, but that doesn't mean you have the control to take action. Because when your brain starts saying go on, eat that thing, go on, it'll be so tasty, and you know what, you can do your calf raises after it — that voice that talks you into things you don't really want to do, and then ten minutes later you feel really guilty.
I'm wondering if you think much about the psychology — the things you can do upstream to either fend off the cravings or have better agency over them.
Jessie: Let's talk about that voice, because it comes in two flavors. For some, the voice is: "That cookie looks really good. Chocolate chip with sea salt — I'm going to buy it after this meeting." That is the voice of pleasure and enjoyment. There's another voice that might be in your brain: "Oh my god, I need sugar right now. What's in the kitchen? I'm going to open the cupboards. Whatever there is — oh, this weird old cookie. I need to have it right now. I need sugar otherwise I'm not going to feel good." Those are two very different voices. The second one is a voice of control — of being almost a victim to sugar addiction.
I want to help people go from the sugar addiction voice to the enjoyment voice. It's fine to have cravings and to want to eat something delicious. I just want to make sure people are not controlled by that voice. I want it to be something you enjoy, not something you are a victim to.
We need to balance our glucose levels so that the voice comes from a place of happiness and not from a glucose crash making you feel controlled by a biological impulse that is stronger than you. Protein in the morning, a savory breakfast — super important. A veggie starter before lunch and dinner when you can. Avoiding sugar on an empty stomach so you don't kick off a roller coaster of blood sugar ups and downs that will make you crave more and more sweet stuff.
Steven: But I regret it ten minutes after. I know I shouldn't eat it — especially if it's at like 10 p.m. Because then it messes up my sleep. It messes up my next day.
Jessie: Sometimes that's the situation we're in. I do that too sometimes. It might be 11 p.m., I'm exhausted, I know my son is probably going to wake up at 4 a.m., but I want that cookie. Maybe I have some vinegar beforehand, but it's okay to give into these things. Sometimes we can't do the glucose hacks and sometimes we're tired and the cookie looks good, so eat the cookie. I don't think we have to feel guilty about that. That's just life.
Steven: But it annoys me because I feel the effects the next day. Was it worth it? Absolutely not.
Jessie: Maybe if you'd had the cookie after some almonds, or if after the cookie you could do some laundry or move around to reduce the spike, maybe you could help with your deep sleep that night. But sometimes you can't.
Sleep deprivation, glucose, and hunger hormones
Steven: The subject of sleep and glucose is one we don't talk about enough. When I'm flying, waking up early at 4 a.m. — my ability to control cravings is significantly reduced. And weirdly, I notice that when I wake up at say 3 or 4 a.m., even having had dinner at 9 p.m. the night before, I wake up really hungry.
Jessie: Interesting. Have you worn a glucose monitor to see if you're not crashing in the middle of the night?
Steven: No. But I've always been so curious as to why that is. Because I know that if I'd slept four hours more, I'd be like today — the first thing I've eaten today, at 2 p.m., was that sardine, because I just wasn't hungry this morning. But if I'd woken up early...
Jessie: I have a question. Do you think it's the time you wake up that's causing you to be more or less hungry? Or is it the dinner you had the night before causing a crash that's causing you to wake up? Because it sounds to me like maybe at 3 a.m., if you're having a glucose crash because you had a big carb-heavy dinner, then it's your body waking you up and making you feel very hungry. For me it's similar — in the morning if I feel extremely hungry, it's usually because I went to bed having just had a bunch of carbs.
Steven: Thanks to the ability to do very quick research, I now know the answer — or at least a solid hypothesis. The leading explanation for why sleep-deprived people eat worse is because of a hormonal imbalance of leptin and ghrelin. Sleep deprivation directly alters the hunger hormones produced in your gut and fat cells. If ghrelin increases — known as the hunger hormone — it signals the brain that it's time to eat. Studies from Stanford University show that sleeping only five hours increases ghrelin by approximately 15%. Leptin decreases — the satiety hormone that tells your brain you're full. The same sleep loss decreases leptin by approximately 15%. The result is your brain receives a loud "I am starving" signal and a very weak "I'm full" signal simultaneously.
Jessie: And leptin is the hormone we talked about earlier — when you're breastfed as a baby, you're epigenetically making more leptin. And this setting can stay with you for life. So it's possible that some of what's going on in early life makes you more or less hungry even as an adult.
Protein: the most underrated pregnancy nutrient
Steven: What is the most important thing we haven't talked about as it relates to your new book?
Jessie: Protein. By the time your baby's born, he is about 50% protein if you exclude water. Protein is not just for your muscles — protein forms your immune system, your skin, your organs, many tissues, many signaling molecules in your body. When you're pregnant, you need to eat more protein to give more to your baby.
Animal studies show something fascinating. When a mom is slightly protein-restricted — eating a bit less than she needs — there's a little epigenetic switch happening in the baby that says, "Dear baby, keep your muscles small because there's not a lot of protein in the world you're about to be born into." What we're eating during pregnancy is in essence sending a little postcard to our baby in the uterus telling him what kind of nutrients will be available in the world he's about to be born into. If you have a low protein diet, your baby will be programmed to stay smaller and have smaller muscle mass throughout his life.
Here I have four chicken breasts, which is basically the amount of protein I needed to eat every single day in the third trimester of pregnancy. Per day. It's a lot. I would have four eggs in the morning — about 30 grams of protein — and then three good servings of protein: fish at lunch, probably meat or chicken at dinner, and then a high-protein snack like Greek yogurt with whey protein powder mixed in. You need about 1.6 grams of protein per kilo of body weight per day in the third trimester.
This is where most of us fall short because nobody's telling moms they need to eat more protein. The result is moms lose their muscle mass because their muscles are being broken down to give protein to the baby. But there's a limit — your muscle mass cannot compensate for a low protein diet. This is why we see across all studies: low protein diets lead to smaller babies and potentially this epigenetic programming of staying smaller throughout life. Protein is key.
GLP-1 drugs during pregnancy and the vinegar hack
Steven: Have you thought much about the impact of GLP-1s — these fat loss drugs — during pregnancy?
Jessie: I don't think they're recommended during pregnancy, and I hope not, because they prevent you from feeling your hunger hormones. During pregnancy, you need to eat more in quantity and calories, but also differently. You need to learn about protein, choline, and omega-3s. I think it'll be quite dangerous to take a GLP-1 during pregnancy.
Steven: Do you recommend the vinegar trick for mothers as well?
Jessie: You can, but if you're going to do that, you need to make sure the vinegar is pasteurized, because during pregnancy people should only eat pasteurized foods to prevent food contamination. Apple cider vinegar is usually not pasteurized. I think it's okay to do during pregnancy, especially if you really want a cookie or muffin — it could be helpful to reduce the glucose spike. But truly, pregnancy is the moment where you need to be eating as little sugar as possible because it's impacting your baby's development.
Obesity, genetics, and fat storage programming in the womb
Steven: I've often seen people talk about an obesity gene and ask if obesity is genetic. I guess one of the things I've deduced from today is that the genetic component might be that during pregnancy, our mother's lifestyle or diet increased our predisposition to having a different reaction to certain foods.
Jessie: Completely, and the studies show that. In animal studies, when a mom has a lot of sugar during pregnancy, there are epigenetic switches in the baby's DNA that encourage fat storage. Why? Because if you eat sugar, your baby's getting sugar in his bloodstream. How does the baby protect himself from high sugar levels? By turning the sugar into fat. So by eating a high-sugar diet, you're sending a postcard to your baby saying, "Hey, you're going to be born into a world with a lot of sugar, so become really good at turning that sugar into fat to protect yourself."
This is why we see across studies on tens of thousands of moms that the higher a mom's glucose levels during pregnancy, the more fat mass a baby is born with. Higher glucose during pregnancy, baby had to turn that glucose into fat to protect himself, so he's born with more fat mass. And it doesn't just stop after birth. Studies show that babies born to high-glucose mothers are more likely to have obesity as children, as teenagers, and as adults. The programming of storing a lot of fat continues even though they're no longer connected to their mom's bloodstream.
Evolutionary diet and the food system's failure
Steven: In producing this book, did you think much about the evolutionary backstory — how our ancestors used to eat? If you look at what we used to eat — nutrient-rich organ meats rather than just a chicken breast, which is actually quite poor in certain nutrients — and how we didn't used to eat processed foods...
Jessie: Today, our food system is failing us. We're all deprived of proper nutrition with all these ultra-processed foods, and that includes pregnant moms. I tried to write a book that was going to help people navigate this very toxic food landscape to see these four simple things they could do to optimize what the baby was getting. But it's a lot to think about. Being pregnant comes with innate pressure. I felt pressure during pregnancy — I'm making another human, this is a lot. And then you're bombarded by messages online about what to do, what not to do. Whatever you do, you feel guilty.
I'm hoping this book gives clear scientific evidence to help people navigate that pressure. I just want babies to be healthy. I want moms to feel as little stress as possible. I'm hoping the book brings a little bit of reassurance and light in this complicated world we live in.
Steven: Stress is something we haven't talked about, but I guess that's also an important factor in raising a healthy child.
Jessie: I was extremely stressed my entire pregnancy because of the miscarriage. The nine months of my pregnancy with my son were the nine most anxious months of my life. That's probably not very good for my baby. But you do what you can. I tried everything to reduce my stress levels — yoga, breathwork, working out, talking to my therapist. But I was still anxious because I really didn't want to lose the pregnancy and I was scared I would.
Steven: But you didn't. And you have a happy, healthy little baby. Do you want to have more babies?
Jessie: I would love to, but now it's logistics. I'm doing this project and that project and this work thing. Where can I find nine months plus six months? By the way, I just love my work. I'm always planning new things.
Reading food labels correctly
Steven: When you look at products in the supermarket, what do you go straight to on the label?
Jessie: Ingredients. I go straight to the ingredients list, because in the ingredients list, things are ordered by weight. The first ingredient is what there is the most of in that food.
Steven: Oh, I had no idea.
Jessie: Yes, they're ordered by weight. So if there is sugar or any other type of sweet thing in the first five ingredients — dates, fruit juice, molasses, orange syrup, whatever — I know that's a dessert. I put it in my mind: this is a food for enjoyment. If you look at the sardines: sardine, olive oil, salt, natural flavor. No sugar in there. This sardine can is not a dessert.
Steven: I usually just go straight to the carbs and sugar level.
Jessie: Carbs and sugars will tell you a lot about what the food is going to do to you. But it depends on the ratio — if there's a lot of protein as well, having carbs in there is not going to create that big a glucose spike. If it's a product that has just carbs, then yes, that's going to spike you.
Steven: A lot of people look at calories.
Jessie: Calories are a very bad way of assessing a food because two foods can have the exact same number of calories and be completely different in terms of what they do to your body. An avocado and a donut — both 200 calories, vastly different impact. It's like saying two books are the same because they have the same number of pages. Calories and pages tell you nothing about what's inside.
We have to learn about molecules. The avocado is mostly fat and fiber — going to keep your glucose levels nice and steady, give your body healthy fats. A donut is mostly sugars — going to create a big glucose spike, inflammation, aging, crash, cravings, fatigue. Only looking at your diet through the lens of calories is a very bad idea.
What Jessie eats day-to-day
Steven: What's your diet generally? What time do you eat in the morning? Do you fast?
Jessie: No, I don't fast. I'll have breakfast in the morning — always eggs. My current kick is a bacon and egg quesadilla. Super good. With coffee, always with whole milk that I love. For lunch I'll have a veggie starter if I'm having a carb-heavy lunch, or a collard green chicken wrap with avocado and peppers. After lunch I almost always have something sweet because I love sugar. I'll have some chocolate or a nice cookie, and then I try to move my body if I can.
The evening is when I have most of my carbs. I love having rice or pasta at night — it just makes me feel cozy. And I try to eat as early as I can. I'm very un-French in that way. If I could have dinner at 5 p.m., I would. But then I'd have no social life. So maybe after my baby's in bed — 7:30, 8. And if I don't have a veggie starter, yes, I'll have some vinegar. If I do have a veggie starter, I'll put vinegar on it.
What's next: mental health and new content
Steven: What else are you working on? What's next for you?
Jessie: One is mental health, because I have a deep passion for it. It's the reason I got into glucose in the first place. I want to see if I can put together some mental health resources based on studies. That's been in the back of my mind for a long time. And I'm working on new types of content. I'm just endlessly inspired by what I'm able to do and how lucky I am to dream something up and put it together. Lots of surprises coming.
Final thoughts on the book and legislation
Steven: What is the most important thing we haven't talked about as it relates to Nine Months That Nine Months That Nine Months That Count Forever?
Jessie: The closing message is: pregnancy is complicated. The food system we live in is complicated and toxic. And this is a very simple four-step, trimester-by-trimester plan that doesn't require a lot of money and is going to help you give your baby the best foundation during development.
Steven: Do you think there are things from a legislation perspective that can be done?
Jessie: The most important is for the system — the support system around moms — to make it really easy for them to eat eggs and sardines and vegetables and healthy fats. We have to all support moms because they're creating the next generation and they can't change the food industry on their own. Things have to shift around them to make it easier.
It's also about education. Choline — I said 90% of moms are not getting enough. When researchers surveyed whether doctors are talking to moms about choline, only 6% of doctors are discussing it during pregnancy. There's a big information gap somewhere. Maybe moms are seen as not able to handle it. Maybe doctors are focused on short-term emergency things to manage. Maybe they don't have time to talk about nutrition. But there's a real gap, and I'm hoping this book will fill it. I'm hoping — and this is pie in the sky — that we prescribe Nine Months That Nine Months That Nine Months That Count Forever to every parent that gets pregnant. This will be a very good, very simple nutrition guide for them.
Steven: I have many people in my life who are currently pregnant, and it's funny because the conversations you hear sometimes feel like guessing. There's so much information out there and so much of it is conflicting. It's wonderful to have a manual like this that demystifies an area where there's just so much coming at you. And your book is so importantly based on scientific consensus and studies rather than experience alone. That's why it's so important.
Whenever the time comes that me and my fiancée are fortunate enough to have our own baby, we're both going to reread this book. It's hard to find books on this subject that are so succinct and break it down stage by stage. And you as an author have a wonderful way of making things accessible — even in this conversation, I never had to ask you to define complicated words. That's reflected in all the work that you do.
Jessie: It's also a good book to buy for your kids if you're a grandparent-to-be and they're about to have a baby soon.
Steven: Amen, Jesse. Thank you.
Jessie: Thank you so much for having me back, Stephen. It's always a pleasure.