Tucker Carlson interviews Kim Dotcom on surveillance, AI, nuclear war, and the decline of American power
Tucker Carlson speaks with Kim Dotcom, the founder of Megaupload, about mass surveillance, the limits of digital privacy, the trajectory of American geopolitical power, and his ongoing extradition battle with the United States.
Summary
Tucker Carlson interviews Kim Dotcom — the New Zealand-based internet entrepreneur and founder of Megaupload, who has been fighting U.S. extradition since 2012 — in a wide-ranging conversation about surveillance, AI, geopolitics, and the future of American power. Kim Dotcom argues that all digital communications, including Signal, are compromised by U.S. government backdoors, and that AI will dramatically accelerate the state's ability to profile and manipulate entire populations. He contends that his original indictment was retaliation for donating to WikiLeaks and supporting Julian Assange, and that the RICO charges carrying a potential 186-year sentence were politically motivated. On geopolitics, he predicts that the United States is in irreversible decline due to unsustainable debt, that Russia will win in Ukraine, that Iran will not be defeated, and that a nuclear exchange is a genuine possibility — one he takes seriously enough to have relocated his family to New Zealand years ago.
Key Takeaways
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Kim Dotcom on who he is and why he was indicted
Tucker Carlson: Kim Dotcom, thank you very much for doing this. How much privacy do we have as citizens of New Zealand or the United States?
Kim Dotcom: Not much. The government is surveilling everybody.
Tucker Carlson: How are they doing that?
Kim Dotcom: They have massive surveillance programs that are designed to catch every phone call, every video call, everything.
Tucker Carlson: What is the purpose of that? Why are they surveilling their own populations?
Kim Dotcom: Because they can create a profile of their citizens and then use the data to put people in categories and influence them as well. So it's not just surveillance, it's also mind control.
Tucker Carlson: In terms of elections or something like that? So you believe the government is tailoring its propaganda to the population based on profiles they've assembled — like Facebook does for advertising?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah. So if they want, for example, support for a war, they can use this system to convince people.
Tucker Carlson: Interesting. How do you get out of it? How do you find privacy in a panopticon like this?
Kim Dotcom: Don't be connected to the internet. It's the only way.
Tucker Carlson: But if you're not connected to the internet, then you can't communicate with people except in your living room.
Kim Dotcom: It's true, but it's a high price to pay. If you're online, you have to know that everything you do is being watched and listened to.
Tucker Carlson: Why is there no way out? Why is there no phone or laptop or tablet that allows me to communicate with you without being spied on?
Kim Dotcom: Because the U.S. government has a lot of fingers in the technology. Every website that you visit, every tool that you use, every piece of hardware that you use is controlled by the U.S. government.
The WikiLeaks connection and the 186-year indictment
Tucker Carlson: This is not a new phenomenon. You were indicted — I think in 2012 — a long time ago. What you were doing was basically allowing people to upload large files privately on the internet. And that was so threatening that the U.S. government tried to put you in prison.
Kim Dotcom: No, what was really threatening was that I gave money to WikiLeaks and Julian Assange. The U.S. government saw me as a person of interest because of that. Everything that followed is because of my support for the truth — for Julian Assange. When Julian came out with the video Collateral Murder — maybe you remember that — I was touched by it and gave a lot of money to WikiLeaks.
Tucker Carlson: And then what happened after you did that?
Kim Dotcom: I was charged with copyright infringement. They said I was responsible for what my users uploaded to my website. But wouldn't Facebook be responsible for every criminal who uses a Meta product? Wouldn't Google be responsible for any criminal who uses their search engine?
Tucker Carlson: I've never heard of this principle before.
Kim Dotcom: The big difference is they did not give money to WikiLeaks or Julian Assange.
Tucker Carlson: So what did they charge you with, and what was the penalty?
Kim Dotcom: They charged me with RICO. So they not only said I'm a criminal because I allowed people to use my websites for infringement — they said I planned it with other people. And what were the penalties? They want to put me in jail for 186 years.
Tucker Carlson: I'm sorry to laugh — 186 years for copyright infringement?
Kim Dotcom: That's what you get if you support Julian Assange.
Tucker Carlson: Well, I do support Julian Assange, so I hope that's not coming for me. Whatever happened to the charges? Are they still trying to extradite you from New Zealand to the United States?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, even after my stroke, they're still trying.
Tucker Carlson: Are you worried that they'll be able to?
Kim Dotcom: Oh, they would want to. I have no doubt. But I don't know if they can, because I'm not the same person anymore after my stroke. So if they really want to go ahead, they are up for a big challenge.
Why no truly private communications device exists
Tucker Carlson: What would happen if you were to use your money to build a phone that was truly private — that the U.S. government could not listen to?
Kim Dotcom: I did something like that when I was still the creator of Mega. I had an encrypted communication tool, but whoever is running Mega now is no longer trustworthy.
Tucker Carlson: But why hasn't anyone done that? It seems like the one thing we could use to regain our freedom is a simple communications device that's actually private.
Kim Dotcom: If you put out an encrypted device, the government will just send you a letter saying you have to give us a backdoor, or go to jail. This is legally possible in the U.S. — the government can just send you a letter saying, give me a backdoor.
Tucker Carlson: And if you say no?
Kim Dotcom: They put you in jail.
Tucker Carlson: So it is illegal in the United States to communicate privately?
Kim Dotcom: No, they say you have freedom of speech — but you don't, and you know it's a joke.
Tucker Carlson: Does any country have freedom of speech?
Kim Dotcom: You have certain degrees of freedom of speech, but it's not like it used to be, where your privacy is protected. Under the UN Charter, we are all protected. The U.S. just doesn't care. And because the U.S. — we know this from Edward Snowden — it spies on everybody.
Signal, encryption, and the impossibility of secure communication
Tucker Carlson: I'm not sure most Americans understand this. Are any communications apps — Signal, WhatsApp, iMessage — actually secure?
Kim Dotcom: No, not even Signal.
Tucker Carlson: Signal is not secure?
Kim Dotcom: Signal is the worst.
Tucker Carlson: How is Signal the worst?
Kim Dotcom: Because everyone is using it. And the U.S. government is laughing because they have a backdoor. People with real secrets use Signal and they're convinced that no one can hear or read them — but they're wrong.
Tucker Carlson: You're sure of that?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah. Signal is not secure. There's nothing I would recommend other than not using any communication tools at all.
Tucker Carlson: Really? So if you wanted to organize resistance to tyranny, you couldn't?
Kim Dotcom: No, you can't.
Tucker Carlson: Have you given up?
Kim Dotcom: I'm being watched now.
How AI will transform surveillance
Tucker Carlson: How will AI change this picture?
Kim Dotcom: AI is very dangerous because it will get access to the U.S. database for this kind of data mining. The AI will know everything about everybody. And there's no way to stop that — don't have AI. Don't have internet. It's the only way.
Tucker Carlson: Why is the U.S. planning on building so many data centers?
Kim Dotcom: It's already building huge data centers because it collects about 10 petabytes of data a day. That's a lot — all communications.
Tucker Carlson: Why is the United States building so many more data centers than China is?
Kim Dotcom: You can't say that because you're being told that. China is not far behind the U.S. when it comes to AI. You're only being told that — it's propaganda. Obama made it legal to propagandize U.S. citizens. So you can't believe anything they say.
Tucker Carlson: Are American media outlets part of that effort to propagandize the public?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, of course. Whoever controls them controls the public. Any access to the media today is controlled.
Independent media and the coming crackdown
Tucker Carlson: In the U.S., there's been a rise of independent media. Some of them have big platforms, reach a lot of people, and they're having conversations like this. They're against the program. How long can that last, do you think?
Kim Dotcom: It's good that there's independent media, and you are one of them, so it's very good to have you all. But there will be a crackdown sooner or later on everybody that is still not controlled.
Tucker Carlson: And what can people do to fight back against that crackdown?
Kim Dotcom: Not much. The power of the government is very strong. There's not too much you can do about it.
Tucker Carlson: You don't seem very hopeful. Are you?
Kim Dotcom: It's a reality. What can I tell you?
The freest countries and the case for direct democracy
Tucker Carlson: Are there any free countries? What is the freest country right now, where people can say what they think with the most latitude?
Kim Dotcom: I think Switzerland is very good, because they have direct democracy, not a representative democracy. The people decide. It's people power. I'm bringing that to New Zealand in this election with the Freedom Party. We will have direct democracy available here.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think that direct democracy will spread to other countries?
Kim Dotcom: I think it's the only way, because politicians are not honest people. They only look for how to make a lot of money. Direct democracy is the answer.
The decline of American power and the war in Iran
Tucker Carlson: Do you think the war in Iran will change America's place in the world? What does the world look like in ten years?
Kim Dotcom: The U.S. is struggling to remain number one. The unipolar system that the U.S. had for many decades — they are fighting for it. But the U.S. has too much debt. They're going down. There's nothing that can prevent that. So I think in the next few years we will see a lot of negative things in the world because of that.
Tucker Carlson: What kind of negative things?
Kim Dotcom: The rest of the world is highly dependent on the U.S. not going under. The war in Ukraine will be lost. The war in Iran will be lost. The USA will go into a big depression because of the debt. I think financially the world is heading into turmoil.
Tucker Carlson: How is the war in Ukraine resolved? What does that look like?
Kim Dotcom: On the battlefield, Russia will win against Ukraine, and I don't think there will be a settlement.
Tucker Carlson: Do you believe that NATO will continue to attack Russia?
Kim Dotcom: I think the attacks on Russia will continue for many years. I don't see the U.S. and Europe giving up. So I think what Russia has to prepare for is a bigger war.
Tucker Carlson: A bigger war directly with the United States and Europe?
Kim Dotcom: Yes.
NATO, Europe, and who wins a direct conflict with Russia
Tucker Carlson: You think this will evolve — or devolve — into a direct conflict between NATO and Russia, where Russia is hitting Europe and Europe is hitting Russia?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, I think so. And who wins? Russia, of course, because Europe has no armies. NATO is a toothless tiger.
Tucker Carlson: Why would the Western powers — why would NATO want a war with Russia? I've never understood that.
Kim Dotcom: The alternative is the U.S. loses. And if the U.S. loses, it will go down. The West has invested a lot in the U.S. All the debt is owned by debtors. Europe is a big debtor to the United States. So if U.S. stock markets go down, all the European companies listed in the U.S. are also going down. We are talking about a loss of maybe trillions. It's not something the West can do. They want to prevent the U.S. from going under.
Tucker Carlson: I understand that, and I'd like to see the U.S. not go under also. But I think they're accelerating the destruction of the United States — this is having the opposite effect. If you wanted to wreck the U.S. and bring the empire to its knees in the most humiliating, painful, expensive way, this is what you would do.
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, but the debt has now reached levels that are unsustainable. It's just a matter of time. To run the U.S. government costs $20 billion a day. It's impossible.
Tucker Carlson: That's right. What is the end of the Iran war? What does that look like?
Kim Dotcom: Iran will win because the U.S. has no weapons and no army to invade. You wonder where all the military money went, because the U.S. has the biggest budget for the military, yet they can't invade. So I think Iran will win.
Tucker Carlson: And then what happens to the United States? Does the U.S. get out of the Middle East?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah.
American politics and the future of democracy
Tucker Carlson: What happens to American politics? What direction does it go, do you think?
Kim Dotcom: I think the only way to save America is for the people to vote directly, not through politicians. The only way to save America is direct democracy.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think electronic voting machines are honest and reflect the will of the people?
Kim Dotcom: I don't trust them. They are able to be manipulated.
Tucker Carlson: You say that as fact — you know for certain that electronic voting machines can be manipulated?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, they can.
Tucker Carlson: So why does the U.S. still have them?
Kim Dotcom: Waiting for the right time to use them, I think.
The nuclear threat and Trump's agenda
Tucker Carlson: Do you see a risk of a nuclear exchange in Ukraine?
Kim Dotcom: If the U.S. goes down, you know what is left — $39 trillion of debt that can never be paid back. It may take the rest of the world down with it.
Tucker Carlson: How do you get to nuclear weapons from there? Who uses nuclear weapons, do you think?
Kim Dotcom: I think the U.S. first — against Iran, and then against the world, primarily Russia and China. I saw this coming. This is the reason why I am in New Zealand, because it's in the middle of nowhere.
Tucker Carlson: When did you see this coming?
Kim Dotcom: I don't know — could be many years, could be tomorrow. But I saw this years ago. I brought my family to safety.
Tucker Carlson: Are you safe?
Kim Dotcom: I don't know. Maybe if I'm extradited to the U.S., I will die in a nuclear holocaust.
Tucker Carlson: Do you think it's likely that Israel uses nuclear weapons? Why does Israel have nuclear weapons in the first place?
Kim Dotcom: Because they spied on the U.S. for the technology and then started their own nuclear program. Everybody in the world knows that they have nuclear weapons, yet they go to war against Iraq, against Iran, trying to prevent them from having nuclear weapons. The first country that should give up nuclear weapons is Israel.
Tucker Carlson: I don't think they're going to.
Kim Dotcom: No, of course not.
Why Julian Assange was such a threat
Tucker Carlson: You said at the outset that you were indicted and they're trying to extradite you because you supported Julian Assange. Julian Assange famously published American secret documents and videos on WikiLeaks. But the U.S. government seemed very focused on destroying him. Why was he such a threat?
Kim Dotcom: Because he was exposing the truth and he got in the way of the plans of the U.S. deep state. So anything that he had in terms of support was attacked.
Why Trump started a war with Iran after promising not to
Tucker Carlson: Why do you think Donald Trump — after spending ten years saying he wouldn't start a regime change war with Iran — did in February start a regime change war with Iran?
Kim Dotcom: Donald Trump is a big liar. Anything he said, he just said to become president. I wouldn't believe a word he says. He's the biggest liar in the world.
Tucker Carlson: What do you think his goal is? What's his agenda? Why is he doing this?
Kim Dotcom: I think he wants to become more than the president of the United States. He wants to make history. I think a nuclear war with him is very likely because of his narcissism and his character flaws.
Tucker Carlson: But starting a nuclear war would eliminate everybody. There would be no history after that.
Kim Dotcom: Yeah, but he is eighty years old, so he is looking for the exit.
Tucker Carlson: And you think nuclear war is the exit?
Kim Dotcom: Yeah.
Tucker Carlson: Is there anything that can be done to stop that?
Kim Dotcom: Not much. If you want me to be honest — a revolution in the United States, so you don't have a fool like Trump as president.
The deep state's financial interest in permanent enemies
Tucker Carlson: Do you think the deep state agrees with Trump on the question of using nuclear weapons?
Kim Dotcom: You need to understand one thing. The deep state has a big budget for keeping Russia and China surveilled. If they no longer have Russia and China as the enemy, the U.S. deep state loses 40% of its budget. So they need to keep Russia and China as the eternal enemy to make money.
Tucker Carlson: So really a nuclear war is not in anybody's interest?
Kim Dotcom: No, of course not.
Europe's future and Putin's position
Tucker Carlson: You're obviously German. Does Europe have a future as European?
Kim Dotcom: If they make peace with Russia, yes. If they cut ties with the U.S., yes. If the U.S. keeps them as a vassal state, they have no chance to survive.
Tucker Carlson: Do you believe Putin is secure in his job?
Kim Dotcom: Putin has over 80% approval rating in Russia, so I think he's pretty safe.
The extradition fight and how Kim Dotcom has survived it
Tucker Carlson: Last question — how have you been able to keep from being extradited? New Zealand is a small country without a meaningful military. The United States wants to extradite you. How have you been able to convince the authorities in Auckland not to send you to the United States?
Kim Dotcom: It's not about convincing the authorities — it's a process. I'm fighting extradition wherever I can. My lawyers are fighting it and using the process to fight it, because that's all I can do.
Tucker Carlson: Well, I'm rooting for you and for the world, Kim Dotcom. Thank you. I know you don't do a lot of interviews, and so I'm grateful you did this one.
Kim Dotcom: No problem. Great to see you.